Why you may want to STAY AWAY from FP (Forced Performance) Turbo - Subaru Impreza WRX STI Forums: IWSTI.com
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Old 07-29-08, 05:53 AM   #1
A.X.D.
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Car: 2004 STi
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: LI, NY
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Default Why you may want to STAY AWAY from FP (Forced Performance) Turbo

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i have kept this hush-hush for a long time until after i was able to speak with my lawyer about it, but it seems more trouble, time, and money than it's worth considering i already wasted money on FP products, so wasting more would just be asinine.

the purpose of this thread is to show you all why i find FP to be a garbage company with garbage product and atrocious customer service.

all of the following is true:


September 1, 2007: driving up to CT with my aunt and uncle in his porsche, my cousin and his GF in his porsche turbo, me and my GF in my car, the FP 20G dies on the Hutch parkway. the turbo let go after a 4th gear pull with my cousin. once i get on the gas a little, i hear this horrific buzzing noise and feel like the car is in neutral - no power. i put on the flashers, pulled over, had my cousin and uncle each pull over. they came to the car to see what was up. i was convinced it was the turbo because of the buzzing noise. i was sure that it was the blades touching the sides of the housing since nothing else to my knowledge could produce that same kind of sound under the same conditions - then there was a bit of smoke coming from the turbo itself. the weekend was completely ruined. i turned the car around and drove it home while the rest of my family went up to CT.

September 10, 2007: the car is flatbedded up to XX Tuning so that they can diagnose and repair the car. i get the following pictures sent to me after the turbo is removed from the car:









after all is said and done, i made the mistake of buying another FP turbo. this time it was a FP Green. at this point i figured, it was just one bad turbo and that since i had purchased it on July 19, 2006 - that maybe it was just "bad luck" on my part. i was wrong.

September 13, 2007: the FP Green was installed and tuned at XX Tuning. as you all know, XX Tuning is a magnificent shop with magnificent technicians that know everything about our cars. Chris tuned the car. 18 PSI on pump - 23 PSI on pump and meth.

November 3, 2007: i drive into Manhattan to pick my cousin up from school (Columbia University) and noticed a slight burnt oil smell from the car on the way in, but nothing major - just hints of the smell.

on my way into Manhattan, i was able to boost the car (18 PSI max) a few times, last time was on the Triboro bridge. as i'm driving through Harlem and stopping at the traffic lights, i start to see hints of smoke from the hood scoop. it slowly keeps getting worse.

after driving back to LI and stopping at a local diner, i popped the hood and saw some smoke coming from the area of the turbo. at this point it was the only place smoke was coming from.

after my cousin and i had a late breakfast, we got into the car. when i started it, the exhaust smoked very badly. as i was backing out of my parking spot, a very thick cloud of smoke was behind the car - like embarrassing thick. i felt like the smoke machines at a Nine Inch Nails concert were attached to my car.

we stopped in at Barnes and Noble to pick up some reading and i asked my cousin to rev the engine a little while i tried snapping off some pictures of the smoke. i wasn't able to get a good shot of it with my phone, but this is what i was able to get:



safe to say, i was pretty pissed off. i had a brand new FP Green only two months at 18 PSI before it committed suicide. i hadn't even run the car on meth since it was tuned. is it possible that all these signs are pointing to yet another GARBAGE FP turbo? yep. all signs are pointing to Failboat Performance.

November 7, 2007: i drive up to XX Tuning in vacuum. let me tell you - it's difficult driving an STi in vacuum that long (~1.7 hours) - especially when driving through cities and long stretches of uphill on the highway. i get to XX, they quickly take the car in the back and perform a list of things on the car that i had asked to do (coolant flush, motor oil and filter, tranny/front diff oil, rear diff oil, goodridge SS lines, super blue fluid). then onto diagnosing the turbo.

at first Jack thought that maybe my dual catch-can kit was not adequate enough to vent the crankcase pressure since there was almost no oil in the catch cans. he figured that there must have been a ton of oil in the APS TMIC. i let him know that when i originally bought the car, the first drive i took with it was a wicked beating on the way home. i told him the car really never had oil consumption problems and that if it does now, it must be the turbo.

after examining everything, he decided to turn the car on. the exhaust gases were TERRIBLE. blue-ish and chalk-ish. Jack said that he doesn't remember seeing exhaust that color nor with that smell (Jack is pretty amazing, too). we later realize it was the coolant and oil mixing in the Failboat Performance turbo.

anyway - he takes the car for a rip - comes back, tells me the motor seems mint. since it was still pulling over 20 vacuum it added to the indication that the engine was still good and he is convinced now it's the turbo.



we rip the turbo out, and guess what... the shaft play on it is about 3 times WORSE than my dead 20G!! to say the least, i was pissed off.










i had brought my stock VF39 with me and they installed that. i can't believe how fast the VF39 delivers power, but i had forgotten how weak it was on the road! definitely a weaksauce turbo on the road/highway, but pretty amazing for auto-X. i was kinda glad to be stage 2 "+" protuned again just to be reminded of how the VF39 is and how well made it is. something i was not inclined to with an FP turbo in my car.

after all this, i decided it was time to contact FP directly.

the following is all what was sent/received - with only personal information removed:


date Nov 7, 2007 3:18 PM
subject 2 Blown FP Turbos


Good afternoon,

My name is Jason. I am writing this email because I have had two back to back bad experiences with your turbos in my car. I am an elite moderator (one step under site owner/administrator) on IWSTI.com (29,273 Members - 97,298 Threads - 1,551,616 Posts). We are currently ranked 996 on Big-Boards.com). I decided to use your turbos on my car modifications after reading about them on our forums.

I haven't posted anything with respect to my predicament because I always like to give companies a chance to make things right before
posting any press - either good or bad.

My predicament is as follows:

I have had the misfortune of having to buy, pay for installations of, pay for tuning for, and ultimately paid for removals of two different
models of Forced Performance turbos for my 2004 WRX STi.

All work was done by the extremely reputable XX Tuning in East Hartford, CT (I have CCd their in-house tuning specialist Chris on this email).

My first FP turbo was the FP 20G which ended up dead because of bearing failure. The second turbo I had installed in my car in
mid-September this year (only two months ago) also just failed because of bearing failure.

To give you a background on the car and it's maintenance schedule, the car has not seen a race event since March of 2006. At the time I
decided to upgrade to a 20G since the factory VF39 wasn't able to get me the ETs I was looking for as a type of "power role-model" for
IWSTI.com. During 2006, I purchased my FP20G and had it tuned at XX Tuning by Chris at the end of October 2006).

That 20G turbo subsequently failed on a planned weekend trip September 1, 2007 and ruined the weekend for us. The car was flatbedded to XX on September 10, 2007 so that they could remove the turbo, diagnose it, and replace it with a different turbo. I was told that the turbo experienced bearing failure which then sheared off a turbine fin like another member on IWSTI I read about in Texas.

At that time, I chalked it up to bad luck and decided to go with the FP Green turbo. I made no mention of this fiasco on IWSTI.com.

After XX installed the turbo, changed my engine oil and oil filter (I always use Amsoil synthetic 10W-30), and re-tuned my car for the FP
Green for a measily 18 PSI of boost, I had the extreme misfortune of experiencing this turbo fail on my way to pick my cousin up from
Columbia University in Manhattan, NY as I was in the middle of Harlem. That was a bad day.

I change my engine oil and oil filter religiously at 3,000 - 3,500 miles after all the research we have posted up on the forum with
respect to the different oils and oil filters we have researched. My car has always been my pride and joy due to the fact that it seems to
be a factory hero - it doesn't consume any oil at all. It passes emissions yearly and has followed the maintenance schedule by Subaru
either on-time or a little early. I take great car of my car because it is not only my favorite possession, but also my daily driver that I
need to get to and from work every day. It never sees any boost until the oil temperature is up at a minimum of 150F and in turn, the car
remains running after any long demands until the oil temperature drops down to around 220F.

I would like to be refunded the amount of money I had to pay for the FP Green and it's installation and tuning costs being that it didn't
even last me 2 months.

I look forward to a speedy reply,
Jason xxxxxxxxxxx
(user name: Majin)


************************************************** ***********************************

Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 4:35 PM
Subject: fw: 2 Blown FP Turbos



Hello Jason,

We are very sensitive to turbo failures and take our products very seriously, and I am glad that you have brought this to my attention.

Your comments sent me to the records at once to determine when you bought your turbos from us and what build date it may have had so that I could get some background on the situation. However I can find no record of you in our system under your given name of Jason xxxxxxxxxxx.

Before any decision on how to proceed is made, we do need to identify you as a customer and examine the turbo, or turbos in your case, in question. I'm sure you can understand our need for learning the nature of a turbo failure and inspecting a turbo as well as verifying that the turbo in question is actually one built by us prior to any other action or comment.

I can find no purchase records of 20g or FPGreen model turbos to "XXTuning" either, so I am only able to guess that you obtained these turbos in some other manner.

In many cases "bearing failure" is similar to "window failure" in the sense that when window fails there is usually a good reason, such as a baseball or brick lying on the floor, that explains why the window is broken. I regret that we did not have the opportunity to examine the 20g turbo that failed prior to installing another turbo on the same car. I have built tens of thousands of turbos personally and took apart many more for failure analysis, and I have saved LOTS of people the trouble you have experienced by pointing out a problem that may have escaped undetected otherwise.

Please tell me how you purchased our turbo(s), perhaps even give me the invoice number(s). Even better would be to send both turbos to us (this is the normal process in a case like this) so that we can examine them and determine what is going on. Turbos can explode and fail at times, but your usage does not warrant such failure, at least how you describe it. I would guess that these two failures occurred with very few miles on either unit - a very clear sign that something is wrong. I have seen defects in the past, but never had a customer unlucky enough to have a defect back to back in my decade of turbo building.

Our warranty covers our turbos for 12months against defects, and lets us replace or repair a turbo that is found to be defective at no charge to you - but it does require that we identify you as a customer and it requires that we have the failed turbo for inspection and subsequent repair or replacement, we cannot simply mail you a check in order to keep you from posting negative comments about us on your website. Perhaps you did not intend to make such a suggestion, but your first and last paragraph make it seem as though you believe we should pay you money rather than process your turbo through the official channels of inspection and repair or replacement.


Best Regards
Robert Young


************************************************** ***********************************

date Nov 7, 2007 5:29 PM
subject RE: 2 Blown FP Turbos


Robert,

Just to cover our end, I have emailed you the original Purchase order for the FP Green that was installed on Jason's car. The Email will come directly out of our invoicing system, so please keep an eye for it in your spam filter.

Also, Just as an FYI, we have purchased two FP Greens from your company this year, One in June and one in August. Im not sure why we are not showing up in your system.

Regards,

Chris xxxxxxx
Senior Tuning Professional


************************************************** ***********************************

date Nov 7, 2007 5:42 PM
subject RE: 2 Blown FP Turbos


Robert,

Upon further investigation, and to source EXCATLY where the turbo came from, I asked the purchasing department.. Since I normally do not do this sort of thing, I was wrong, the FP Green turbo came from JSC Speed. I will send you the purchase order I received from them. We have purchased two Greens from them in the last month. You can feel free to look it up with them, or contact them to verify the purchase. Apparently, when we tried to get the turbo from you, you were severely back ordered.

Please check your email for the purchase order, is should be on its way.

Regards,

Chris xxxxxxx
Senior Tuning Professional


************************************************** ***********************************

date Nov 8, 2007 10:40 AM
subject Re: 2 Blown FP Turbos


Robert,

Thank you for your speedy reply. Before I continue, understand that I do not mean to use my status on the forum as a way to force a refund check. I did mention that to let you know that I will be posting everything that transpires either in or against my favor, thus the
reason behind me informing you of this all in the first line of the first email. I do not want it to surprise you later on being that my
opinion is held in high regard on the largest STi specific site in the world. I owe the members of IWSTI all the information in both my
adventures and misadventures, but not before dealing with the vendor directly first. I never like to talk a company up or down without
giving the process a try.

Another concern of mine is the email address: *********@yahoo.com. Who does this belong to? I have said nothing outside XX Tuning or in this email conversation. I would ask that this please stay between XX Tuning, your company, and myself.

Also, with respect to your reasons of "bearing failure" versus "window failure" - my concern is the fact that I have experienced two
"failures" with your turbos on significantly less miles that the factory turbo which I had to pay to have installed on the car again
after my second FP turbo experienced another "failure." At over $1,000.00 for the 20G and over $1,300.00 for the Green, you can
understand why I don't care for the reason behind the failure, just the fact that the most expensive parts for my car ever purchased
failed on a car with tedious maintenance schedule/routine where everything else on the car has been in superior condition and persist
in that condition to this day.

I am happy to inform you that neither the FP 20G nor the FP Green were discarded - they are both in fact at XX Tuning and they will be
shipping them to you for your examination.

My FP 20G was purchased from another one of your authorized resellers - TopSpeed located in Alpharetta, GA on July 19, 2006. They were terrific, but very far away from me - located in Long Island, NY. Thus the reason I went to XX Tuning. The FP Green was purchased through XX Tuning.

After I had the turbo failure with the 20G, XX Tuning recommended the FP Green as they said numerous times that FP turbos are good turbos and have repeatable results on the dyno. I was hesitant to go with another FP, but their assurances of good results in the past with FP pushed me to get the Green.

Thank you for your time in this important matter Robert.

Regards,
Jason


************************************************** ***********************************

date Nov 15, 2007 2:15 PM
subject Re: 2 Blown FP Turbos


Robert,

Good afternoon. Do you have any updates for me?

Regards,
Jason


************************************************** ***********************************

date Nov 15, 2007 5:34 PM
subject Re: 2 Blown FP Turbos


Hello Jason,

As a matter of fact I do, and some pics to send over also. I can handle it first thing tomorrow morning. Do you have a telephone number that I can reach you at? Talking is so much easier than typing

Robert


************************************************** ***********************************

date Nov 16, 2007 9:06 AM
subject Re: 2 Blown FP Turbos


Robert,

Unfortunately, I am always in meetings; today being no different.

Email is the best method of communication for me.

Regards,
Jason


************************************************** ***********************************

date Nov 16, 2007 11:36 AM
subject Re: 2 Blown FP Turbos


Hello Jason,

I will type up the cliff's notes version for you then since you cannot use the phone today.

The 20g turbocharger had a failure mode I see relatively often. The inducer tips of the turbine wheel have been broken due to impact with a foreign object, and the resulting imbalance to the turbine shaft have pounded the turbine side bearing well out of specification. This is very different than a contaminated or under lubricated bearing that fails first and then starts dragging the turbine blades. In such a case the turbine blades will simply bend and deform slowly since there is no impact as in the case of a foreign object.

The turbine housing volute gets increasingly smaller in cross sectional area as it wraps around the turbine wheel. In the case of the WRX turbine housings this area decreases to only .075" at the very end of the volute. Anything larger than about .075" by .075" isn't going to make it thru the turbine blades without wedging itself between the blade and housing. If this happens with any significant amount of RPM on the turbine shaft the tips break off the turbine when such a foreign object is introduced.

There is a short list of typical items that cause this to occur. EGT probes that fail and shed material into the exhaust stream, spark plug electrodes and tips, bits of header or up-pipe gaskets (yes they can get sucked into the header under deceleration), and of course bits of a failing engine. The last and probably most common foreign object is likely the least known. This is an aftermarket tubular header, which you may not even have on your car but I point out anyway just FYI since I expect that many will be reading this document.

The shape of a WRX tubular header/up-pipe really does not allow inspection of all the weld joints inside surface, often mass produced aftermarket tubular headers have "weld dingle berries" along the inside of the tube that result from either a lack of back gassing the header during welding or just plain sloppy welding. These header hemorrhoids are unstable and frequently break away from the inner surface of the header after exposure to the heat and vibration of normal use. This would be insignificant if the header did not feed into a turbo, but in the case of a turbo these weld dingle berries to not pass thru the turbo without resulting in serious damage as you have observed. I realize that you were told by a tuner that the bearing failed and then the blade broke, but that was incorrect, and I speak from over a decade of first hand turbo building and failure analysis experience.

Your 20g fell victim to one of these or possible other form of foreign object damage to the turbine wheel. The foreign object is only rarely left remaining inside the turbo after such an event, so complete forensic identification is not possible.

The Green model is not a case of foreign object damage. Its turbine wheel is damaged from rubbing the turbine housing, its edges are bent and deformed as I would expect after bearing clearance grows beyond specs. Internally the turbo reflects your aggressive maintenance schedule and high quality oil use. However the Moly coating on the journal bearings is completely worn off both the inside and outside of the bearings which is a result of the bearings being in direct contact with the shaft and housings instead of floating like an air hockey puck on a pressurized film of oil. Ball bearing turbos such as the VF39 can live and in fact prefer lower oil pressure and volume for oil supply. Floating bearing turbos such as the FPGreen do not. I see that the oil feed line was returned with the turbo, I assume this was the line installed with the turbo which is good. If this turbo was damaged by low oil pressure, it was not due to a lack of effort on your part. While it might be the case that nothing you directly did resulted in the failure of the turbo, it is still true that for whatever reason the oil supply to this FPGreen model turbo was inadequate. I have been told by Subaru service techs that there is a service bulletin regarding wire mesh filters that are intended to keep the variable camshaft solenoids clean becoming clogged or restricted, these are reportedly inside the fittings that feed the turbo line and camshaft solenoid. I have been unable to verify this by finding the actual service bulletin, but this could be related if it is indeed true. If this is happening on your car you would not see a lubrication problem with a BB turbo if since they do not have the same oil feed requirements as our floating bearings and Monster thrust bearing which also consumes much more oil than a stock thrust bearing.

Being that I cannot point out where your actions damaged this turbo specifically, other than evidence of failure to float the bearings with sufficient oil pressure and the resulting contact and wear that occurred to the bearings which I will not fault you for since you used our oil feed line, we can cover the repair/replacement of this turbo under our warranty.

I realize that your initial letter advising me of your status on a website forum did request a payment to you in the form of a check. However our warranty only allows for the repair of the replacement of a turbo, not payment for tuning, installation, or any other expense incurred. We can replace/repair this FPGreen model turbocharger for you, and I am sure that you will find this completely unsatisfactory, which I regret - but that is what we can do for you. When you share your failure story with your fellow STi enthusiasts, I am sure that you will do FP the service of including all of our correspondence as you indicated that is was your duty to "posting everything that transpires either in or against my favor"


Best Regards
Robert Young


************************************************** ***********************************

date Nov 20, 2007 4:37 PM
subject Re: 2 Blown FP Turbos


Robert,

Thank you for the reply, and while I apologize for not replying to you sooner, I appreciate the effort you are making on my behalf. I do,
however, still have a few lingering questions that I hope you can provide answers for.

I would like more pictures of the failure areas on both of the turbos with their respective explanations as to how the observable damage was caused and what indicated this to you. I would appreciate that very much, and so would the members of the site. Thank you in advance.

You are not the only person to see the FP20Gs fail on the exhaust side. It seems that other members of IWSTI have posted a few threads in which their FP20Gs also failed on the exhaust side. It appears that there may be something else wrong other than the possibility of particulate matter, perhaps with the turbos themselves being that it is not likely to have all these cars firing particulates big enough to break exhaust turbine fins off the turbos, yet have no damage anywhere else on their cars. To make things more confusing to me, you were unable to find any particulates in the housing of the 20G, other than the broken turbine fin, and there was nothing else in the catalytic converter in my car - as XX has removed it and other components of my car to inspect it for damage after the 20G failed.

Also, you were correct, I still have the OE exhaust manifold on the car, along with new gaskets every time I had to pay for the
installation of an FP turbo. I can assure you that no expense was spared when it came to providing the best for my car, since it is my
daily driver car and of course, because I like the car. I had the car for about 2 years and 19,000+ miles before it was modified in any way, at which point it was always with the OE turbo. Only around the 30,000+ mile marker did I decide to add power to the car beyond the OE turbo, at which point I had the FP 20G installed. That turbo lasted less than a year. The Green turbo lasted less than 2 months. Today, the car has less than 44,000 miles. The two FP turbos combined lasted less that 14,000 miles. I can't see how that is possible when the OE turbo tuned past factory power levels has lasted over 122,000 documented miles for one member on IWSTI and these turbos were not tuned past their specifications. Perhaps you can tell me where else should I look for extraneous matter of the size required to cause the damage you describe? I'm sure my tuner would also like to know for the sake of their future customers.

I am extremely fortunate that your turbos didn't destroy other parts or even the rest of my car (although I did pay for the tests to be
sure), because I can see that your warranty would really do me no good in that event. Your warranty would apparently leave me with a new FP turbo and a $33,000+ car that couldn't bring me to work.

The speculative cause for failure of the Green didn't sit well with me being that the factory VF39 is not, in fact, a ball bearing turbo, but
as per Subaru and IHI literature, is a thrust bearing turbo. If my Amsoil 10W-30 motor oil was (and is today) able to provide the OE IHI
turbo with sufficient pressure to float the thrust bearing, and the same held for the 20G's bearing, why now can it not provide the Green
with enough pressure? The car consistently sees a minimum of 20 - 22 PSI pressure when the oil temps are at their max, and under load the oil pressure is at a minimum of 70 - 71 PSI. If your Green turbo requires a different grade of oil and/or different pressure than the
factory thrust bearing turbo, why wasn't this noted on the FP site or literature at any time prior to his email? I would be saddened to
think that my car was an unwilling and expensive R&D subject.

Again, thank you for the time you have put in and the care you have shown in answering my emails. As a loyal customer who bought two
turbos from you I expected no less. If you could provide me with these answers I would greatly appreciate it; not to mention all the
hundreds of potential customers on IWSTI.com who will be made aware of my problems. The faster we can speed this to a satisfactory
conclusion, the happier we will all be in the end.

Regards,
Jason


************************************************** ***********************************

date Nov 20, 2007 6:08 PM
subject Re: 2 Blown FP Turbos


I am unable to continue exchanging emails regarding turbo failure modes, I have explained what I see in these 2 turbos. I appreciate your curiosity and interest in this subject. It is not fruitful to entertain hypothetical possibilities regarding the failure of these two turbos any further. I know it seems cliche, but I have perhaps the most experience of anyone in the country when it comes to Mitsu based hybrid turbos and what it takes to make them live and what results in their failure and the opinions of untrained forum readers is not particularly relevant to the truth of this matter. I am correct regarding the failure of your 2 turbos, it is not something that is debatable. The 2-3 fold increase in oil flow required by the monster thrust bearing of the Green and red models makes them susceptible to oil starvation, omitting the stock oil line and using our recommended feed line is all that is required as far as additional parts to provide proper lubrication so long as there is nothing unusual with the balance of the oil system of the car. You did this, which is why we can cover the turbo under our warranty. Additionally, intercooled engines are not harmed during the failure of a turbocharger, even in the severe case where the compressors explode. None of these pieces can pass thru the intercooler, and in the case of a broken turbine wheel, all pieces continue to travel downstream in the exhaust. So your concerns over engine damage are unwarranted. I am not optimistic that you will avoid hammering FP on the internet about your blown up turbos, you have hinted to such in ever correspondence to date. Despite that, please make a reasonable request for compensation and I shall consider it due to your bad experiences even though our warranty does not allow for such compensation. I regret that you have had such a poor experience with our product and wish to make it up to you.

If you wish to discuss this further, feel free to call me. 972-***-**** ext ***

Best Regards
Robert Young


************************************************** ***********************************

date Nov 26, 2007 12:36 PM
subject Re: 2 Blown FP Turbos


Robert,

Good afternoon. I hope you and your family had a terrific Thanksgiving.

To keep this short, being that you are willing to make concessions, I will too.

I am willing to forgo all the expenses I incurred with the failed turbos (~$2,000.00); car rental, tow costs, install costs, removal costs, diagnostic tests, and tuning costs). I will settle for a refund on the FP 20G, FP Green, and FP STi Oil Supply Line. I will also keep my experience off the forum since you are willing to go the extra mile for me.

$1,399.00 (Green) + $1,165.00 (20G) + $75.00 (Oil line) = $2,639.00

In all, I find this a fair compromise for the both of us. Please let me know if you find this unreasonable.

Regards,
Jason


************************************************** ***********************************

date Nov 29, 2007 10:44 AM
subject Re: 2 Blown FP Turbos


Robert,

Good morning. Do you have any updates for me?

Regards,
Jason


************************************************** ***********************************

date Nov 30, 2007 5:27 PM
subject Re: 2 Blown FP Turbos


I am uncomfortable with paying you a full refund for these two turbochargers. The failure of either of these turbos does not lie in any defect of the turbocharger, and I can't help but feel "pressured" to pay you $2600 for any other reason than to prevent you from badmouthing us. It isn't right for us to not get badmouthed if we screw somebody. So I suppose in a sense, if you think we have screwed you, I think you should tell people.

I can see to "buy back" the Green model since I know why it failed, and it was not any fault of yours, and I truely am sympathetic to your situation. You are a victim of the turbo oil supply screen Service Bulletin dated Oct 2007 by Subaru, and if you had a stock turbo on the car that failed Subaru would be replacing the turbo free of charge. Subaru would not be cutting you a check for $2600 however. You have a 2004 which is the first year STi to fall under this TSB.

In fact I almost think that you posting a thread about your "defective turbochargers" will provide a very nice podium for FP to respond to dispel common misconceptions regarding turbocharger failures and distribute our most recent Service Bulletin regarding Subaru Turbo Oil Starvation somewhere besides our own website. For your review I have attached the bulletin.

Regards
Robert Young


************************************************** ***********************************

date Dec 3, 2007 11:57 AM
subject Re: 2 Blown FP Turbos


Robert,

I've given careful thought to your offer, but in the end, I do feel as though I'm bearing an unfair portion of the financial burden.

The screens you are referring to is a very old TSB that was posted on the forums in late 2005, which I had performed in early 2006 before my
first protune using the stock turbo. You can witness proof of my acknowledgment in this thread:

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...ough-idle.html

I still am uncomfortable with the assumption that my car is what caused this problem on both the FP turbos when my OE turbo has always performed (and currently performing today) just perfectly.

Please understand, I am not "pressuring" you into "giving me $2,600.00," I am asking you as a compromise to refund my $2,639.00
from the bad FP turbos and the FP oil line that I purchased.

I am not asking for the taxes on the FP turbos and the FP oil line, I am not asking for the rental costs for the down time on my car, I am
not asking for the flatbed fees, I am not asking for reimbursement of the expenses from the ruined labor day weekend, I am not asking for
installation/removal/tuning fees. Believe me, I want this over and done with faster than you do.

If you are truly sympathetic to my situation, please just refund my costs on the FP turbos and FP oil line and we can go about our ways,
hopefully with the wind at our respective backs.

Respectfully,
Jason


************************************************** ***********************************

date Dec 5, 2007 6:42 AM
subject Re: 2 Blown FP Turbos


Sir,

Your performance auto projects are your own financial burden, no one is insuring you against problems when you choose to modify your car.

The screen I am referring to is not the old TSB from 2005, it is a recent TSB dated OCT 2007 and it is very relevant to your recent troubles with your FPGreen turbocharger. Perhaps you did not realize that there exist a new TSB regarding turbocharger oil screens and turbo failure, here is a link.

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m.../02-103-07.pdf

I am glad that you are not asking for flatbed fees, rental car fees, pain and suffering fees etc because we would have to even further disappoint you if that were the case. Our warranty does not cover anything besides repairing or replacing a defective turbocharger.

Forced Performance has a responsibility to provide it's customers with perfect turbochargers, and we do. Everything else is up to you, we have no control over installation or usage of our turbochargers, certainly no control over an obscure oil filter hidden in the oil supply tube of your car that Subaru failed to mention in any maintenance prior to the OCT 2007 TSB.

We are however sympathetic to your situation and will repair your FPgreen model for free.

Please give me your shipping address so that I can return your ruined 20g and rebuilt FPGreen model to you.

Best Regards
Robert Young


************************************************** ***********************************


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Old 07-29-08, 05:53 AM   #2
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Default Re: STAY AWAY from FP (Forced Performance) Turbo

in the end, Mr. Young tried but failed to hide behind the TSB about the oil feed line screen. even though Jack @ XX had removed the screen (which was in place and CLEAN)







there was nothing obstructing the oil supply to the turbos. of course, if there was an obstruction in the oil feed line, there would be signs of oil starvation in each of the rotating assemblies of those turbos - to which Mr. Young himself told me that there were no signs of this whatsoever!

also, it's pretty obvious that if there was an obstruction that caused two journal bearing turbos to fail, why didn't the OE turbo (VF39) fail under the same conditions? it was exposed to this "condition" much longer than any of the FP turbos were. of course, this was a rhetorical question - the answer being that there was no obstruction.

i bought the car new, high quality oil has been used in my car from when it had approximately 10K miles (Amsoil 10W-30), the OE turbo NEVER had any issues (for ~30K miles - including ~10K miles protuned), the FP 20G sh*t itself in less than 10K miles, the FP Green sh*t itself in less than 300 miles, the factory turbo went on again with NO ISSUES at ALL, then the Dom 3R went on. to this day, no issues at all!

at this point, i knew that Mr. Young wasn't interested in making things right so i figured it would no longer be beneficial to either one of us to continue the correspondence.

a few weeks later, UPS showed up at my house with a box that supposedly had the 20G, the Green, and the oil line. i never opened the box - in fact, i refused the shipment. accepting the shipment would just acknowledge accepting Mr. Young's "compromise" to which there was no way in hell i was going to.

until this date, i haven't received my refund.

after all of this mess had transpired, i was looking for a new turbo to put in my car. a friend of mine and fellow moderator on IWSTI, (Muffnbluff), had suggested Blouch Turbo after the ridiculously terrific experience he had with them even after having an issue with a particular turbo after a tuning session. Blouch had been shipped the turbo in question, sent out a NEW turbo (see: not rebuilt), and a check to pay for another tune. after hearing that story, i knew that was the company to deal with.

after a phone call to Mike @ Blouch, i was convinced that Blouch was, in fact, the company to deal with. their company was 180° from the mess FP was. a real turbo company that knew what the deal was when quality turbos, fantastic customer service, and performance are a must. i was soon a proud owner of a Blouch Dominator 3.0R. the turbo is amazing and i haven't looked back since. it was installed and tuned by Jack and Chris, respectively, at XX Tuning in East Hartford, CT.

if you are in the market for a new turbo for your car, i strongly suggest you contact Blouch Performance.





cliff notes: FP turbos are garbage. FP customer service is garbage. Stay away!
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Old 07-29-08, 05:56 AM   #3
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Default Re: STAY AWAY from FP (Forced Performance) Turbo

if you have had a similar experience with FP and posted about it on IWSTI, link to that thread in here.
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Old 07-29-08, 05:58 AM   #4
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Default Re: STAY AWAY from FP (Forced Performance) Turbo





Seems like the process was civil, if unsatisfactory. I'm not much of a power modder, but this would sway me away from FP. When the customer and the tuner both believe the failure was in the turbo... I dunno. Seems like ignoring them both is bad business.
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Old 07-29-08, 06:05 AM   #5
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Default Re: STAY AWAY from FP (Forced Performance) Turbo



Well documented - great post. This is a useful review and I'm glad to see it posted for future reference.

Last edited by rmo55c; 07-31-08 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 07-29-08, 06:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: STAY AWAY from FP (Forced Performance) Turbo

I can vouch for Jason and his experience. Although we do not directly sell FP turbochargers, we will no longer provide a conduit to our customers for them. Currently, we have begun our process with Blousch to become a factory direct dealer.

As a tuner, I always get the questions "Which turbo do you suggest?", after a quick interview with the customer, 9 times out of 10 I would suggest the green because of it's quick spool up, and hard hitting powerband. Unfortunately, because of recent events, I have decided to start my recommendations with with the Blousch D1 series and work my way up from there.

It's sad to see this happen, especially because it's obvious that FP was a driving force in the Subaru community. Although, there is not a single vendor that is perfect out there, and we all have our flaws, it is imperative to make sure that you make your customers happy, sometimes the customer may ask too much, but at least the vendor should make a valiant attempt to rectify the situation.. I do not believe this was done.

Take Care,
Chris
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Old 07-29-08, 06:18 AM   #7
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Default Re: STAY AWAY from FP (Forced Performance) Turbo

Maj that sucks. I am sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience with them. Sharing this kind of knowledge can only help the community. The more information about bad experiences we share, the more collective wisdom we will have. I am betting that there are a lot more people that also suffered turbo failures with FP products. One failure can be a fluke, but two to the same person smacks of poor workmanship. The more stories we can document in one place, the more evidence of shoddy workmanship, the better.

Also as a side note, since this is a thread dedicated to bad experiences lets keep these as factual as possible. Providing documentation like Maj did goes a whole lot farther then an incoherent libelous rant.
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Old 07-29-08, 06:20 AM   #8
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Default Re: STAY AWAY from FP (Forced Performance) Turbo

wow this took me away from looking at their turbos for future modding.. i hope something works out for you..
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Old 07-29-08, 06:25 AM   #9
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Default Re: STAY AWAY from FP (Forced Performance) Turbo

Yeah FP quality has gone downhill as of late. Bloush seems to make a good turbo.
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Old 07-29-08, 06:26 AM   #10
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Default Re: STAY AWAY from FP (Forced Performance) Turbo

Quote:
Originally Posted by EFI Logics View Post
Although, there is not a single vendor that is perfect out there, and we all have our flaws, it is imperative to make sure that you make your customers happy, sometimes the customer may ask too much, but at least the vendor should make a valiant attempt to rectify the situation.. I do not believe this was done.
I would just like to add, though I am not a vendor, that when you run a business that bad customer experiences all come back to the salesman before the manufacturer. When customers' parts fail the tuner is often the first person to get the blame regardless of whose fault it is. Were I a tuner I would be very leery of installing a product with a documented history of premature failures. Stuff like that can give a tuner a bad name even when its not their fault.
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