Rob @ AMR (Automaster Of Westchester Dot Com) - Page 2

WolfPlayer · 02-13-2007, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoMaster

Wolfplayer,

I do not know who you are nor have we ever met. But there is only ONE way to proper scale a MAF sensor. I do not know where you get your information from. We have run as big as 3.85" MAF intake systems and the voltage/gsec is perfectly scaled and on the money. Hence why we are able to make such high numbers on stock ECU. You as a moderator should know that if you have not been to a facility nor have had work done there, you should not make claims.

-Rob

Rob - if you would like me to pull out logs that have MAF V vs. Airflow for a car you have tuned recently then just say so. Simple as that. You did not adjust the full intake calibration. In fact, the values listed in the log showed that the lower values were adjusted but you did not touch the upper values. Now, you have one of two choices here. You can do the right thing. Or, you can do the wrong thing. Now, maybe this was just a 'one car thing' where you did not adjust the upper MAF curve for this one car. So be it. However, in my experience tuning, people don't just 'forget' for one car.

I can post those logs publicly. You make the call.

t

**AutoMaster** · 02-13-2007, 05:50 AM

Wolfplayer,

Go ahead and post it up. The only claim I am making against this is if I was the one who tuned the vehicle. I would have not just adjusted 1 value in the entire MAF table. Make sure you are right about this cause if not I am going to take legal action against this.

-Rob

WolfPlayer · 02-13-2007, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoMaster

Wolfplayer,

Go ahead and post it up. The only claim I am making against this is if I was the one who tuned the vehicle. I would have not just adjusted 1 value in the entire MAF table. Make sure you are right about this cause if not I am going to take legal action against this.

-Rob

First, I NEVER said you adjusted one value. FWIW, Jorge (RiftsWRX) and I already has this discussion and he didn't threaten to take legal action. He turned it around and made a nice discussion of it. Jorge does the same thing on bigger MAFs a lot. He will tune the idle and the part throttle and the upper MAF curve is left alone. He'll do all the fueling in the primary fueling table. There are 54 values in the MAF table. Regarding the tune I reviewed, I said "They use a stock MAF calibration in the upper voltage area". That does not imply one point. That means you probably touched at least 25 points. Cool.

Understood on the other main points in your post. I will tripple confirm that you are the one ... easy enough since there is a long post on this board with you and the owner talking about the tune, etc. However, as you mentioned, I will again confirm with the actual client. I owe everybody that.

If I am wrong then not only will I publicly apologize in any and every manner possible, but I will relinquish being a moderator on this board and I will never post on IWSTI ever again. However, even if I were to never post on this board again, please prepare yourself to deal with this subject again. More and more people are moving into the DIY tuning market and they will be reviewing your tunes. This will happen again ... and again ... and again. Instead of threatening legal action, why not just have a discussion and explain how I am wrong and how you are correct? Or - MAYBE NOBODY IS WRONG. Maybe you skin the cat one way and others skin the cat the other way. We can discuss the pros and cons of each manner. Isn't that more productive and doesn't that put you in a better light? If I were you, I would start worrying that potential customers who might read this thread and possibly think that when push comes to shove you might take the problems to the courts instead of working in a productive manner to solve the problem.

t

scubadiver424 · 02-13-2007, 06:20 AM

Wolfplayer, I am one of those potential customers, and still am interested in a tune at Automaster, at least when this gets resolved a bit more. Wolf seriously Thanks for your help and concerns man. Im sure this will all be figured out soon.

**MRGLASS** · 02-13-2007, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Instead of threatening legal action, why not just have a discussion and explain how I am wrong and how you are correct? Or - MAYBE NOBODY IS WRONG. Maybe you skin the cat one way and others skin the cat the other way. We can discuss the pros and cons of each manner. Isn't that more productive and doesn't that put you in a better light

kb2spn · 02-13-2007, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfPlayer

First, I NEVER said you adjusted one value. FWIW, Jorge (RiftsWRX) and I already has this discussion and he didn't threaten to take legal action. He turned it around and made a nice discussion of it. Jorge does the same thing on bigger MAFs a lot. He will tune the idle and the part throttle and the upper MAF curve is left alone. He'll do all the fueling in the primary fueling table. There are 54 values in the MAF table. Regarding the tune I reviewed, I said "They use a stock MAF calibration in the upper voltage area". That does not imply one point. That means you probably touched at least 25 points. Cool.

Understood on the other main points in your post. I will tripple confirm that you are the one ... easy enough since there is a long post on this board with you and the owner talking about the tune, etc. However, as you mentioned, I will again confirm with the actual client. I owe everybody that.

If I am wrong then not only will I publicly apologize in any and every manner possible, but I will relinquish being a moderator on this board and I will never post on IWSTI ever again. However, even if I were to never post on this board again, please prepare yourself to deal with this subject again. More and more people are moving into the DIY tuning market and they will be reviewing your tunes. This will happen again ... and again ... and again. Instead of threatening legal action, why not just have a discussion and explain how I am wrong and how you are correct? Or - MAYBE NOBODY IS WRONG. Maybe you skin the cat one way and others skin the cat the other way. We can discuss the pros and cons of each manner. Isn't that more productive and doesn't that put you in a better light? If I were you, I would start worrying that potential customers who might read this thread and possibly think that when push comes to shove you might take the problems to the courts instead of working in a productive manner to solve the problem.

t

sound good to me.

**AutoMaster** · 02-13-2007, 07:27 AM

Wolfplayer,

The problem I am having with your post is it is inaccurate. To me you are asking me to tell you how I scale the MAF's. Each tuner has there own methods of doing this. I do not appreciate the attempt you made to hurt my company under a thread made to show customer satisfaction. If you do a search, all of our customer vehicles run 110% perfect and so is the reliablity. I threaten you with legal action because you come across as someone trying to knock our work and tuning when you have never been here before. As far as you reviewing my maps. The tuner is the only person able to pull up there map to view and edit. You can data log to get a glimpse of whats going on but will not be able to see the tuners map. We have nothing to hide, we take pride in the vehicles we do. As any customer of ours will tell you. We stand by our work.

-Rob

crystal_Imprezav · 02-13-2007, 08:15 AM

FWIW, just because a company has a 100% great feedback for tunes, it does not necessarily mean anything. Now I am not trying to get into a bashing battle with anyone nor is wolf. It is just a fact that needs to be stated that many tunes go on the easy route. You simply can not expect a 100% perfect tune in a 2 hour time slot. Now imagine having cars lined up all day for every two hours until closing time... You can only imagine by the last tune, how bad your head is spinning and not to mention 'those' cars that are a pain, we all have encountered them. I think this thread got a little too serious too fast. All tuners have there own thinking when it comes to tuning. Some go for perfection and some go for numbers. You would not believe the things I have seen people do, i.e. for a larger set of injectors, not changing the injector scaler and trying to tune it all in the lower part of the MAF... now of course that must be one of the worsts ways of approaching it, but to the people that are less knowledgeable about it, they will probably never pick up on it, until something goes wrong. Example 2, telling a customer that you can't use Protuner on there ST software so they must only use your laptop and tune on it simply because it was the end of the day and they did not want to flash another basemap...

It is not really a bashing contest, only a way to make more people aware so that they can ask question and have a little more information before going into a shop for a tune. In addition, I would like to add that w/o a load bearing dyno such as a mustang dyno which people hate going to b/c of 'low readings' what is tuned on a regular dyno will infact change on the streets. I have seen a tune with MAF tuned on the idle volts and REDUCED on the upper. Not only was the car running like crap, but it almost pretty much blew up. I spent almost a week getting it dialed in, so imagine how much could have been done in a 2 hour time slot... Now would a reg. customer actually want to spend that much money for a tune? No way, that would cost thousands of dollars. I did it as a favor and b/c I like to tune cars on the side as a hobby. Jorge has stated this many times. Another fact that I would like to bring up is the fact of the basemap memory limits. I would assume since the intake cal is such a big deal, it would be tune and flashed into the basemap. With memory limits, it may only be possible to tune the lower portion of the MAF and tune the rest in the fuel/realtime running the stock mapping pig rich much like in stock form. There are too many ways of doing this and like I said before everyone has there own opinion. I think this could turn into a very interesting discussion, rather than an argument between two individuals. I have seen your work Rob and it is impressive. Although I have never seen and logs nor sample maps, looking at dyno charts, they seem to be in good order with no obvious dips or spike where you can see the ecu pulling timing. I would like to see this thread turn into an informative one rather than one being pretty much useless to the community. It may have seemed like wolf was coming off in an offensive way, but please believe when I say he was not. He enjoys starting up a good tuning discussion with other professionals just as much as my self. It is a way for everyone to grow and learn some more in the progress. Ok I am done rambling now, thank you for your time reading my meaning less post

scubadiver424 · 02-13-2007, 08:19 AM

Crystal Impreza, great points man! I agree whole heartedly

RainMaker · 02-13-2007, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoMaster

If you do a search, all of our customer vehicles run 110% perfect and so is the reliablity.

Thats impossible. You cannot take 2 hour dyno tunes and make large-MAF cars (with FMICs) run perfectly again and again and again and then say that after they leave they will run perfectly forever. Weather changes, tunes drift, and almost noone drives around with a WBo2 or a knocklite.

A car with a FPRed, GT35, etc, cannot be made reliable indefinitely with a tune on a dyno, period.

Alot of hobbyist self-tuners DO resent the commercial tuners because of the image that they create of their product and the expectations people leave the dyno with. We see what happens on the dyno, and we know what it takes to make a car as streetable as we expect it to be, and the two dont line up. I have this issue with pretty much every commercial tuner out there, *including* one of my very good personal friends, who is considered to be one of PDXTuning.s "best".

I'm sorry this ended up in your review thread, but I wouldnt have typed anythign if you hadn't said what I quote above...

Chris

RainMaker · 02-13-2007, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoMaster

To me you are asking me to tell you how I scale the MAF's. Each tuner has there own methods of doing this.

And until we all know *exactly* how the PCM uses the MAF curve for other drivability fueling, there is ONLY ONE CORRECT WAY to scale a MAF. We have to make the MAF transfer function actually reflect reality accross the whole MAF.

We probably know 1/4 of the ways that the PCM uses the data that we have access to. Fortunately, we know the right ways to at least make some decent power. Unfortuantely, most of us tune street cars, not race cars.

La Mer · 02-13-2007, 08:45 AM

why single out AutoMaster?? there have been so many tuner reviews, yet you have to jump on THIS review? how about a FYI thread/sticky in the ECU tuning forum rather than singling out one tuner?

i think it is AWESOME that you guys are making the public aware, but i just don't think it's fair to AutoMaster taking the attack for the whole professional tuning community.

crystal_Imprezav · 02-13-2007, 09:02 AM

^ I agree with your post. It really just happened because it came out the wrong way. I do agree that we should start a separate post on the subject.

WolfPlayer · 02-13-2007, 10:28 AM

In the hopes of resolving this amicably, I sent a PM to Rob with some data.

t

***Majin*** · 02-13-2007, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by La Mer

why single out AutoMaster?? there have been so many tuner reviews, yet you have to jump on THIS review? how about a FYI thread/sticky in the ECU tuning forum rather than singling out one tuner?

i think it is AWESOME that you guys are making the public aware, but i just don't think it's fair to AutoMaster taking the attack for the whole professional tuning community.

i guess no one remembers the thrashings that Doug from TopSpeed and Scott from SR/SoG got in the past...

they didn't threaten anyone with legal action - they came out swinging at the argument points.

i am sure that Rob is the kind of guy that will do the same and continue being a bright spot in our ever growing Subaru community.

02-13-2007, 05:50 AM	#17
AutoMaster Authorized Vendor Car: Where Real Power is Fav Mod: Tuning & Performance Location: Mamaroneck, NY 10543 Posts: 568 Join Date: May 2005 Trader Rating: (0)	Wolfplayer, Go ahead and post it up. The only claim I am making against this is if I was the one who tuned the vehicle. I would have not just adjusted 1 value in the entire MAF table. Make sure you are right about this cause if not I am going to take legal action against this. -Rob

02-13-2007, 06:20 AM	#19
scubadiver424 S204 Racer Car: 06 WRB GOLD STI Fav Mod: DDX7017 Location: US of A Posts: 3,627 Join Date: Mar 2006 Trader Rating: (8)	Wolfplayer, I am one of those potential customers, and still am interested in a tune at Automaster, at least when this gets resolved a bit more. Wolf seriously Thanks for your help and concerns man. Im sure this will all be figured out soon.

02-13-2007, 07:27 AM	#22
AutoMaster Authorized Vendor Car: Where Real Power is Fav Mod: Tuning & Performance Location: Mamaroneck, NY 10543 Posts: 568 Join Date: May 2005 Trader Rating: (0)	Wolfplayer, The problem I am having with your post is it is inaccurate. To me you are asking me to tell you how I scale the MAF's. Each tuner has there own methods of doing this. I do not appreciate the attempt you made to hurt my company under a thread made to show customer satisfaction. If you do a search, all of our customer vehicles run 110% perfect and so is the reliablity. I threaten you with legal action because you come across as someone trying to knock our work and tuning when you have never been here before. As far as you reviewing my maps. The tuner is the only person able to pull up there map to view and edit. You can data log to get a glimpse of whats going on but will not be able to see the tuners map. We have nothing to hide, we take pride in the vehicles we do. As any customer of ours will tell you. We stand by our work. -Rob

02-13-2007, 08:15 AM	#23
crystal_Imprezav Spec C Club Car: Slow 05 STi Fav Mod: Loping Idle Location: Chewy's Garage Posts: 1,845 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (11)	FWIW, just because a company has a 100% great feedback for tunes, it does not necessarily mean anything. Now I am not trying to get into a bashing battle with anyone nor is wolf. It is just a fact that needs to be stated that many tunes go on the easy route. You simply can not expect a 100% perfect tune in a 2 hour time slot. Now imagine having cars lined up all day for every two hours until closing time... You can only imagine by the last tune, how bad your head is spinning and not to mention 'those' cars that are a pain, we all have encountered them. I think this thread got a little too serious too fast. All tuners have there own thinking when it comes to tuning. Some go for perfection and some go for numbers. You would not believe the things I have seen people do, i.e. for a larger set of injectors, not changing the injector scaler and trying to tune it all in the lower part of the MAF... now of course that must be one of the worsts ways of approaching it, but to the people that are less knowledgeable about it, they will probably never pick up on it, until something goes wrong. Example 2, telling a customer that you can't use Protuner on there ST software so they must only use your laptop and tune on it simply because it was the end of the day and they did not want to flash another basemap... It is not really a bashing contest, only a way to make more people aware so that they can ask question and have a little more information before going into a shop for a tune. In addition, I would like to add that w/o a load bearing dyno such as a mustang dyno which people hate going to b/c of 'low readings' what is tuned on a regular dyno will infact change on the streets. I have seen a tune with MAF tuned on the idle volts and REDUCED on the upper. Not only was the car running like crap, but it almost pretty much blew up. I spent almost a week getting it dialed in, so imagine how much could have been done in a 2 hour time slot... Now would a reg. customer actually want to spend that much money for a tune? No way, that would cost thousands of dollars. I did it as a favor and b/c I like to tune cars on the side as a hobby. Jorge has stated this many times. Another fact that I would like to bring up is the fact of the basemap memory limits. I would assume since the intake cal is such a big deal, it would be tune and flashed into the basemap. With memory limits, it may only be possible to tune the lower portion of the MAF and tune the rest in the fuel/realtime running the stock mapping pig rich much like in stock form. There are too many ways of doing this and like I said before everyone has there own opinion. I think this could turn into a very interesting discussion, rather than an argument between two individuals. I have seen your work Rob and it is impressive. Although I have never seen and logs nor sample maps, looking at dyno charts, they seem to be in good order with no obvious dips or spike where you can see the ecu pulling timing. I would like to see this thread turn into an informative one rather than one being pretty much useless to the community. It may have seemed like wolf was coming off in an offensive way, but please believe when I say he was not. He enjoys starting up a good tuning discussion with other professionals just as much as my self. It is a way for everyone to grow and learn some more in the progress. Ok I am done rambling now, thank you for your time reading my meaning less post

02-13-2007, 08:19 AM	#24
scubadiver424 S204 Racer Car: 06 WRB GOLD STI Fav Mod: DDX7017 Location: US of A Posts: 3,627 Join Date: Mar 2006 Trader Rating: (8)	Crystal Impreza, great points man! I agree whole heartedly

02-13-2007, 08:45 AM	#27
La Mer NIИja Car: 2006 STI (SGM) Location: US - Southern California Posts: 38,018 Join Date: Jan 2006 Trader Rating: (5)	why single out AutoMaster?? there have been so many tuner reviews, yet you have to jump on THIS review? how about a FYI thread/sticky in the ECU tuning forum rather than singling out one tuner? i think it is AWESOME that you guys are making the public aware, but i just don't think it's fair to AutoMaster taking the attack for the whole professional tuning community.

02-13-2007, 09:02 AM	#28
crystal_Imprezav Spec C Club Car: Slow 05 STi Fav Mod: Loping Idle Location: Chewy's Garage Posts: 1,845 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (11)	^ I agree with your post. It really just happened because it came out the wrong way. I do agree that we should start a separate post on the subject.

02-13-2007, 10:28 AM	#29
WolfPlayer Moderator & ECU Tech Car: 05 CGM STI Fav Mod: mo boostaz Location: Fredneck, MD Posts: 3,542 Join Date: Jun 2004 Trader Rating: (6)	In the hopes of resolving this amicably, I sent a PM to Rob with some data. t