[boondocksaint]

Originally Posted by KrazyKarl

exactly. I don't have a problem with CC but open carry is kinda dumb if you ask me. its like telling all the drug dealers/gangsters that you've got a free gun for them. also, open carry only benifits you if you have a gun. if concealed is legal, and a good percentage of the populous do carry, then I'm benefited even if I dont (because anyone who thinks about pulling something knows I might be)

I do, however, believe that the country, as a whole, has it wrong about what the right to bear arms was intended for. Those that wrote the second amendment were just getting out from under an oppressive government, and, more than anything else, didn't want to be under one again. The right to bear arms was put in as one more layer of defense from that. This would make it easier for the people to revolt if the government did ever become oppressive. That is the only reason that the second amendment is in there, not for personal protection at all.

I disagree. It is the right of every citizen to be able to protect his or herself and family from egregious injury. I believe it is my right to do so with whatever weapon I choose, as long as I own it legally and am proficient in its care and use.

I say again. Banning guns will not prevent gun crime in this country.

[fullerton]

Originally Posted by jaydow11

Two points:

1.) You said that cops now have to war chain mail to prevent attackes from knifes.

Could one say that cops are more afraid/aware of assalts from other methoes/weapons than they are from guns?

Again, why is there a fundamental difference in the attitued around/towards owning Guns in the US vs owning guns in the UK?

2.) I'm not saying that people will go out and kill others Because of the second amendment, BUT what I am saying is that I think the second amendment is One of the reasons/factors why the US has a gun problem in the first place.

1- They wear chain mail in addition to bullet proof vests.

2- Well, without the second amendment, we may or may not have the ability to own guns, so you have made a valid point, regardless of how weak it is.

[1loudsti]

Originally Posted by fullerton

1- They wear chain mail in addition to bullet proof vests.

2- Well, without the second amendment, we may or may not have the ability to own guns, so you have made a valid point, regardless of how weak it is.

2 is true but the criminals would still no doubt get them which would only make the situation worse

[jaydow11]

Some interesting quotes on "change" by various people!

Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

People don't resist change. They resist being changed. ~ Peter Senge

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. ~ Charles Darwin

Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything. ~ George Bernard Shaw

And of course this one applies as well:

There is nothing wrong with change, if it is in the right direction ~ Winston Churchill

[boondocksaint]

Originally Posted by jaydow11

Some interesting quotes on "change" by various people!

Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

People don't resist change. They resist being changed. ~ Peter Senge

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. ~ Charles Darwin

Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything. ~ George Bernard Shaw

And of course this one applies as well:

There is nothing wrong with change, if it is in the right direction ~ Winston Churchill

Yeah, that was productive.

[jaydow11]

Originally Posted by boondocksaint

Yeah, that was productive.

Thanks!

[Bownse]

Originally Posted by boondocksaint

Yeah, that was productive.

he missed one.

change is recommended as long as it's you changing to be like me and not the other way 'round. (apparently his personal motto)

[jaydow11]

Originally Posted by Bownse

he missed one.

change is recommended as long as it's you changing to be like me and not the other way 'round. (apparently his personal motto)

That's good!

[Bownse]

Originally Posted by jaydow11

Again, why is there a fundamental difference in the attitued around/towards owning Guns in the US vs owning guns in the UK?

you're asking the wrong people. this issue has been studied for decades by people with lots of letters following their names. it's not guns at the root of the difference; it's people. some of those researches point to a generational difference in culture that resulted in one group of people staying put and under the dominion of a monarch while another group of people ventured out into the unknown, away from the safety of a developed society, across oceans and wildernesses, against nature and personal hardships to carve out a new life; surviving through strength of will and determination.

some claim it's this branching of direction that created a root difference in cultures and those differences are are the core of why one culture is different than another.

but it's not the tools that created the differences.

[boondocksaint]

For some people, gun ownership is a reaction. For others, it is simply part of how they live. For others, it's out of the question.

I am personally not concerned so much with the fabric of society, and cultural differences. I have always been of the opinion that, if you do not want to own a gun, you don't have to. If you do want to own a gun, you can. With either choice comes a consequential responsibility.

If you own a gun, you are responsible for that choice and all it entails.

If you do not own a gun, you are responsible for that choice and all it entails.

Me? I'd rather keep my options open. The fundamental nature of gun ownership in this country is not going to change, and I seriously doubt that anyone will be able to pinpoint a moment at which the social attitudes towards firearms diverged.

[Bownse]

Originally Posted by boondocksaint

I am personally not concerned so much with the fabric of society, and cultural differences. I have always been of the opinion that, if you do not want to own a gun, you don't have to. If you do want to own a gun, you can. With either choice comes a consequential responsibility.

i agree. choice is a personal thing. that those who champion choice in so many other aspects of life reject it in this area is interesting. but the person asking the questions seemed to be determined to tie personal choice into society or some such. the repeated visit to that well served no advancement of the discussion and began to border on the trollish. much better that those concerns be redirected to published studies on the matter rather than reinventing their fire-encrusted wheels here.

[jaydow11]

Originally Posted by Bownse

you're asking the wrong people. this issue has been studied for decades by people with lots of letters following their names. it's not guns at the root of the difference; it's people. some of those researches point to a generational difference in culture that resulted in one group of people staying put and under the dominion of a monarch while another group of people ventured out into the unknown, away from the safety of a developed society, across oceans and wildernesses, against nature and personal hardships to carve out a new life; surviving through strength of will and determination.

some claim it's this branching of direction that created a root difference in cultures and those differences are are the core of why one culture is different than another.

but it's not the tools that created the differences.

Very interesting! I can def see that being a factor in the difference in attitueds/thinking(?) if those are the right words to use...

I agree that Guns don't kill people, people kill people and guns arn't necessarily the problem.

I enjoy fireing a gun and play COD4 almost every day!

I guess the root of the problem is the lack of respect people have.

I just went to an Ethics Seminar in Vancouver and the Ph.D professor stated 5 core Values people possess.

Honesty
Respect
Fairness
Compassion
Responsibility

If every human being actually lived by these core values, we wouldn't be having this discussion!

[RuralSTI]

I have been around firearms of all types as long as I can remember. I was on a competitive rifle team for four years, and am a hunter (not as much now that I am done with college). Also I have not had any interaction with the law. That said I just decided to get my cary permit this year. I really never felt the need to have it because of the area I live in (Western PA).

That was until my 6 year old cousin and her father where at a Chuck E. Cheese and some punk kid attempted to rob the place with a pistol. Her Father has taken his pistol with him every day since he has returned from Iraq but did not that day because he was having a problem with the pistol jamming. He said he has never felt that much fear before, not even in Iraq. The possibility of someone harming his girl without being able to do anything about it was too much. Thankfully the goon lost his nerve and ran out of the place without there being a problem.

If something like that can happen in a "good area" at a kids indoor park, then I want to have the ability to protect my child (when I have one in many many years ).

On the other side of things though I wish this state would make you take a training course before you got your permit. All there was to getting mine was a five minute wait while they ran a check to see if I checked out. I don't even think they have any volintary classes if you wanted to take one.

Oh and England does not count because they have bad teeth.

[1loudsti]

Originally Posted by jaydow11

I just went to an Ethics Seminar in Vancouver and the Ph.D professor stated 5 core Values people possess.

Honesty
Respect
Fairness
Compassion
Responsibility

If every human being actually lived by these core values, we wouldn't be having this discussion!

that is completely untrue...this discussion is debating the legal carry of firearm, if people werent generally honest everyone would carry anyway nevermind the law. respect comes in from the respect alot of people in this thread have for firearms and personal safety. fairness is obvious, its fair for the individual to choose to carry or not to carry that choice shouldnt be made by someone who has 5 or 6 people surrounding him or her that DO carry. compassion i see no value here nor there to this arguement honestly. resposibility, discussing being responsible enough to take the tests go through the training to learn to use the weapon correctly, that is one of the main objects of debate here...responsible use and carry.

[jaydow11]

Originally Posted by 1loudsti

that is completely untrue...this discussion is debating the legal carry of firearm, if people werent generally honest everyone would carry anyway nevermind the law. respect comes in from the respect alot of people in this thread have for firearms and personal safety. fairness is obvious, its fair for the individual to choose to carry or not to carry that choice shouldnt be made by someone who has 5 or 6 people surrounding him or her that DO carry. compassion i see no value here nor there to this arguement honestly. resposibility, discussing being responsible enough to take the tests go through the training to learn to use the weapon correctly, that is one of the main objects of debate here...responsible use and carry.

Aside from other things.... I think you seriously missed the point!

I was trying to say that if everyone lived by those values, no one would need to carry a gun because there would be no crime, no lying, no stealing, no murder, no fraud....

Are you saying that's not true?