[grambo]

Originally Posted by JJ18Sniper

Wow they must have interviewed the biggest morons to just support there point.

X2...yep
My Neon had well over 100K on it with no problems...ever...orther than stuff created by modding it. Overall though, it was pretty cheaply made, especially the interior. The mechanicals were just simple, not necessarily cheap in any way. So, I don't know, I had tons of problems with my VW water-pumpers....

[emanteno]

Originally Posted by Rmiller

I'll agree that American cars suck. The quality is just not there.

15 years ago, I'd have agreed with you. Today, American car quality is quite good. I have first hand knowledge of several late model GM cars that have gone over 200,000 miles with zero engine or tranny work. Just oil changes and brakes. The cars are extremely durable, and cost very little to maintain.

BUT, much of their engineering is boring (pushrod V-6's, perfected ancient technology that is boring but reliable as can be), they look like ****, and are boring to drive with only a few exceptions.

I think it is funny that a guy from a country with no auto industry has to use a $80,000+ car built by a company that wouldn't exist anymore if Ford hadn't bailed it out as his benchmark of how inferior American cars are.

[emanteno]

Originally Posted by Conekiller13

In fact I think Lotus cars is the only still British Automaker.

Lotus was bought out in 1996 and is Malaysian owned. I think Morgan and TVR may be the last ones left, and they probably sell less than 2000 cars a year combined.

[boost_happy]

Whats the best engineered car made in america? One that YOU would drive and be proud of. One that would make this British Twit smile? I say the ZO6. Why would it make him smile, well maybe because it spent 8 months in Europe on a road track doing nothing but R&D. So the car was designed and changed in europe but assembled in america. That car here kicks ass, along with kicking ass overseas. Its not that americans can't make a great car, but maybe he's right, we're in the wrong environment thats demanding enough to raise the bar.

[STi Mark]

There is a common problem in America, the unions. The work really hasn't changed in years, yet the pay is demanded to be higher and higher. One thing that I have noticed is that Americans, in general, are lazy. They want to do the least amount of work possible, yet get more money for what they do. This directly impacts car quality. Think of the same mentality on the line. Nobody on there is going to double check anything with any kind of passion for what they do. Granted, there always is an exception, but for the most part, that is what I feel. I see is day in and day out at my work. Even from people who like their jobs, they feel the same way. I don't like my job, but on occasion, I find that passion again.

It is truley amazing how our partying culture translates directly to our work ethics. Maybe they party too much and don't have anything left over for work. I am not sure.

When I have more time, I may just post my true feelings on the subject. To be honest though, my 1999 Ford Mustang and mu 2003 Mustang GT have not had any issues. I had to tear apart the '99 because of a tapping rocker, but that is because they dealer never looked at the car...I expected a little issue. Nothing major though.

But there is one easy test to determine quality of build. Go up to a 2006 Subaru STi, and open the door. No creaks, nothing but solid door. Now close the door. It closes with a solid authority that is just nothing but "right". Try my '03 Mustang. It doesn't close solidly, and it does rattle when it closes.

I can point out differences all over, but does it make it a bad car? No. What it does mean is that double checking items, making sure everything is "correct" is something American motor companies need to start doing.

[Rmiller]

Originally Posted by emanteno

15 years ago, I'd have agreed with you. Today, American car quality is quite good. I have first hand knowledge of several late model GM cars that have gone over 200,000 miles with zero engine or tranny work. Just oil changes and brakes. The cars are extremely durable, and cost very little to maintain.

The quality is good compared to American cars in the past, but it's still worse than Japanese brands. Maybe several GM cars hit 200,000 miles; several Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans, etc. hit 300,000. A coworker of mine had a mid-90's Grand Prix that just died. My friend had a '94 Camaro that just died. Actually, the Camaro cost him an average of $150/month for the last 2 years in repairs alone. It had around 150,000 miles on it. Another friend has a '02 Silverado and has spent about $2k in repairs (maintenance not included) thus far (he has 99,200 miles). E-brake line, tailgate latch, 3 distributor caps are some of the items that broke. Another friend has a '00 S10 and he's had his share of problems. By comparison, I had a '93 Z TT with 110k miles and it had never had a problem and ran like a new car. My dad had an '02 IS300 with 100,000 miles and it was the same. I can go on and on with examples but anyone can check reliability indices for a statistically sound reference.

Originally Posted by STi Mark

One thing that I have noticed is that Americans, in general, are lazy. They want to do the least amount of work possible, yet get more money for what they do.

Americans are the most productive workers in the world. Maybe this isn't true of domestic auto manufacturers, but it's true on the whole.

[MadMan77]

Originally Posted by Rmiller

The quality is good compared to American cars in the past, but it's still worse than Japanese brands. Maybe several GM cars hit 200,000 miles; several Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans, etc. hit 300,000. A coworker of mine had a mid-90's Grand Prix that just died. My friend had a '94 Camaro that just died. Actually, the Camaro cost him an average of $150/month for the last 2 years in repairs alone. It had around 150,000 miles on it. Another friend has a '02 Silverado and has spent about $2k in repairs (maintenance not included) thus far (he has 99,200 miles). E-brake line, tailgate latch, 3 distributor caps are some of the items that broke. Another friend has a '00 S10 and he's had his share of problems. By comparison, I had a '93 Z TT with 110k miles and it had never had a problem and ran like a new car. My dad had an '02 IS300 with 100,000 miles and it was the same. I can go on and on with examples but anyone can check reliability indices for a statistically sound reference.




Americans are the most productive workers in the world. Maybe this isn't true of domestic auto manufacturers, but it's true on the whole.

It is the Unions that are to blame for the laziness. They make it impossible to fire the lazy and incompetent individuals. Unions may have served their purpose in the past but they are bloated gluttons that need to be deflated or removed completely.

[rasetsu]

Originally Posted by STi Mark

There is a common problem in America, the unions. The work really hasn't changed in years, yet the pay is demanded to be higher and higher. One thing that I have noticed is that Americans, in general, are lazy. They want to do the least amount of work possible, yet get more money for what they do. This directly impacts car quality. Think of the same mentality on the line. Nobody on there is going to double check anything with any kind of passion for what they do. Granted, there always is an exception, but for the most part, that is what I feel. I see is day in and day out at my work. Even from people who like their jobs, they feel the same way. I don't like my job, but on occasion, I find that passion again.

I'm glad you brought up this point because I was going to.

The Z06 and GT were engineered and put together well because the people on those lines had pride in what they did. Maybe it's because the top brass gave them something to be proud of or the people who worked on them were the best of the best. It's probably a combination of the two, but look at the other rental fleet cars like the Five Hundreds and the Impalas. There's no passion there. The union workers get paid the same amount regardless to build a lackluster product. What motivation is there to give a 110% if the guy next to you gives 50% and gets the same pay working on something that isn't anything more than an appliance?

[Talon]

Originally Posted by rasetsu

The union workers get paid the same amount regardless to build a lackluster product. What motivation is there to give a 110% if the guy next to you gives 50% and gets the same pay working on something that isn't anything more than an appliance?

to take this one step further, i know several people who deal with union workers. they have seen union workers store bottles of liquor in their toolboxes; when discovered they are sent home for a day or two, but not fired; back to do the same crap job with no penalties. my friend's mother works for gm and one day they had some kind of mess(don't remember exactly what it was). she was about to clean it up and other employees told her that union janitors were the ONLY ones who could clean it up(some kind of rule). so she goes to find a janitor and after 20 minutes she can't find even one. she eventually worked her way to the storeroom where they keep the cleaning suppies and she discovers that all of the janitors are inside, drinking and playing poker. she reported them but what a suprise, none of them were penalized.

unions may have been appropriate at one time, but nowadays they are just a friendly place for asswipes looking for an easy job. i hate them because i work in the manufacturing business and they make all americans look bad.

[scubadiver424]

youtube lost the video

[rasetsu]

Fiscally liberal public officials keep unions in power despite the damage they have done to our education system, manufacturing industry, healthcare industry, emergency services, etc.