[Kickstand]

I think it looks cool, but thats about it. Like others have said for the price that thing should haul. We don't have much room to talk about interior as ours sucks. You can't really compare that to a GTO, I know they are both resurrections of old muscle cars, but the GTO is basically a Holden which is an awesome ride. I think that this car is a classic example of why the "big three" are doing so poorly. They still try to appeal to the mullet heads with big cubic inches. When today you can take an engine half the size make the same power and be more efficient. Meh thats while ill stick to either japanese or german cars for my garage thanks. Except maybe a Z06. Extremely poorly written paragraph over...

[mcqueendrivesporsche]

Originally Posted by chair-force

oh yes, how could i forget!
the mazdaru stree. so fugly.

Yes. But hey, they want to win in WRC. Maybe they could get a driver that actually challenges Loeb or Ford?

Regardless, all companies make mistakes. It's just a matter of how they rectify them. Problem is, the big 3 ran out of money decades ago.

[mcqueendrivesporsche]

Originally Posted by Kickstand

I think it looks cool, but thats about it. Like others have said for the price that thing should haul. We don't have much room to talk about interior as ours sucks. You can't really compare that to a GTO, I know they are both resurrections of old muscle cars, but the GTO is basically a Holden which is an awesome ride. I think that this car is a classic example of why the "big three" are doing so poorly. They still try to appeal to the mullet heads with big cubic inches. When today you can take an engine half the size make the same power and be more efficient. Meh thats while ill stick to either japanese or german cars for my garage thanks. Except maybe a Z06. Extremely poorly written paragraph over...

C5 Z06's had their fair share of quality issues. The C6, past the early roofs flying off- not so much.

The GTO was a failure b/c it was a Holden. BUT...b/c it was a Holden, it was a much better car than anything Pontiac could have main on their own. The Grand Prix, G6, G5 ALL testify to that.

[snorky]

Originally Posted by mcqueendrivesporsche

Yea but when is enough enough? How many badges are you going to disgrace before the public stops eating it up?

i wish i knew. We are near if not at the end of the golden age for reasonably priced high hp cars. emissions standards and gasoline prices will/are going to kill it. I'm not stating anything ground breaking obviously, just thinking out loud.

[mcqueendrivesporsche]

Originally Posted by snorky

I wasn't aware, no. That's my point, in so many words: They're trying to do things as cheap as possible in order to maximize profits.

Edit: Those reviews are by so called enthusiasts. Of course enthusiasts "care" about manual transmissions. But to most people, manual transmissions are more trouble than they're worth. MTs are fun to fully utilize. but for most, auto is easier because you're not driving your car agressively but .0001% of the time.

My old man used to drive nothing but manual. Now that he's older, he sees manual as an inconvenience in almost any case with the exception of a full time weekend/track car. I think his thoughts are shared with a lot of older enthusiasts.

I don't know if I agree with that. Auto's are still considered luxury, and still cost a premium on most cars. They get worse mileage (which is why the manual GTO is able to avoid a gas guzzler tax, and why GM has a 1-4 skip shift), and often they are more expensive to fix than a manual (although it's dependent on driving style, make/model, etc.)

While I don't mind driving an auto in traffic, never would I equate a non-shiftable, or "auto-stick" auto with driving fun. A muscle car is not supposed to be about convenience- it's supposed to be big, unadulterated presence, power, and fun. While autos may be better for drag racing (and that's a huge muscle car crowd), rarely will you see a true "fan" pick an auto over a 4 on the floor Hurst.

[snorky]

Originally Posted by mcqueendrivesporsche

C5 Z06's had their fair share of quality issues. The C6, past the early roofs flying off- not so much.

The GTO was a failure b/c it was a Holden. BUT...b/c it was a Holden, it was a much better car than anything Pontiac could have main on their own. The Grand Prix, G6, G5 ALL testify to that.

It didn't fail because it was a Holden. It was a great handling, powerful car. It failed aesthetically. The sheet metal was dated the day Pontiac debuted the car.

[mcqueendrivesporsche]

Originally Posted by snorky

i wish i knew. We are near if not at the end of the golden age for reasonably priced high hp cars. emissions standards and gasoline prices will/are going to kill it. I'm not stating anything ground breaking obviously, just thinking out loud.

Well, the 997T is one of those rare cars where it doesn't kill the environment. In fact, the air coming out of the car is healthier than the air going in when driven in an environment like Houston, LA, etc.

As long as their are manufacturers who strive to at least cooperate, I think it'll be fine. And by fine I mean, it won't be a massive purge. At least not yet.

[mcqueendrivesporsche]

Originally Posted by snorky

It didn't fail because it was a Holden. It was a great handling, powerful car. It failed aesthetically. The sheet metal was dated the day Pontiac debuted the car.

Well, here's where I have personal knowledge. I owned an 04 for 2 years. It failed for several reasons..the prominent reasons are...

- The badging. It was labelled as a GTO, yet the styling was not even close to what a "GTO" looks like. It was built in Australia, and b/c all it was was a rebadged, rebumpered car with softer springs and lower HP than the other markets, it was looked at negatively from the get go. While styling is also combined (heavily) with this, the badging has a huge impact. It was not a GTO, and people were very, very offended that Pontiac used their sacrosanct badge on a "foreign" car.
- Marketing. Test drives were not initially permitted, and other then a few reviews, it was not widely received. GM has been known to suck at this, so this is not a shock. But when you have so much riding on it, you'd be surprised how badly they didn't even care.

The car has one of the best interiors I've ever seen, it was built like a tank, and it handled, which is rare for a muscle car. Many people called it a poor man's M5, and I believe that to be true. But the badging just killed it. The resale is so poor I was able to get an 04 for 17K, with 7K on the odo. That's a ridiculous deal, and sadly, it seems to be getting worse.

[DylanPS]

Originally Posted by mcqueendrivesporsche

In fact, the air coming out of the car is healthier than the air going in when driven in an environment like Houston, LA, etc.

You watch top gear!


I'm almost ashamed after reading this. People who buy these aren't buying them to drop 1/4 mile times (and I'm not sure why any STi owners would buy an STi for the same purpose) but rather they are buying a collectors item. My father works at a Dodge dealer and I watched some guy drop 50K for the one the day it came off the truck. Do I think he's crazy? Yep. Does he probably think you're all crazy for spending 35k for what he probably thinks is a ricer ****-box Subaru? Yep.

Different strokes for different folks. Not everyone is looking for the performance/$ ratio. I know you guys are smarter than you act.

[mcqueendrivesporsche]

Originally Posted by DylanPS

You watch top gear!


I'm almost ashamed after reading this. People who buy these aren't buying them to drop 1/4 mile times (and I'm not sure why any STi owners would buy an STi for the same purpose) but rather they are buying a collectors item. My father works at a Dodge dealer and I watched some guy drop 50K for the one the day it came off the truck. Do I think he's crazy? Yep. Does he probably think you're all crazy for spending 35k for what he probably thinks is a ricer ****-box Subaru? Yep.

Different strokes for different folks. Not everyone is looking for the performance/$ ratio. I know you guys are smarter than you act.

But really, what is so special about it? The styling? The badge? What makes that car a collectors item past Chrysler trying to make a quick buck? They took a name and half-assed it- much in the same way Pontiac did with the GTO (yet in completely opposite fashions).

My basic point is that the car is riding one two facets, and the rest of it is merely BS.

And yes, I watch Top Gear. But if you read any review of the 997T (or Porsches in general) it'll mention that they don't kill trees nearly as much as you'd expect.

[snorky]

Originally Posted by mcqueendrivesporsche

I don't know if I agree with that. Auto's are still considered luxury, and still cost a premium on most cars. They get worse mileage (which is why the manual GTO is able to avoid a gas guzzler tax, and why GM has a 1-4 skip shift), and often they are more expensive to fix than a manual (although it's dependent on driving style, make/model, etc.)

While I don't mind driving an auto in traffic, never would I equate a non-shiftable, or "auto-stick" auto with driving fun. A muscle car is not supposed to be about convenience- it's supposed to be big, unadulterated presence, power, and fun. While autos may be better for drag racing (and that's a huge muscle car crowd), rarely will you see a true "fan" pick an auto over a 4 on the floor Hurst.

Most ATs nowadays get within 1-2 mpgs of MTs in the city and are usually dead even on the HWY. ATs were a luxury before the 80s. Now they're the standard. Yeah they still knock money off if you pick up MT but most dealerships are not going to carry many, if any MTs because you don't sell anywhere near as many and it's hard for the average person to justify having a MT on the average car.

You and I are not like most people. Most people do not do unadulterated performance. Hell, the reason why most people bought 04-07 STIs instead of Evos is because of aesthetics, drive comfort, and interior features. Evos are more performance oriented and unadulterated from the factory. Don't try to argue that, it's my opinion and it's very educated.

[renns]

Heh, I watch Top Gear too, but I'd be catching some hard lulz if you tried to breathe just the exhaust from a 997T.

[mcqueendrivesporsche]

Originally Posted by snorky

Most ATs nowadays get within 1-2 mpgs of MTs in the city and are usually dead even on the HWY. ATs were a luxury before the 80s. Now they're the standard. Yeah they still knock money off if you pick up MT but most dealerships are not going to carry many, if any MTs because you don't sell anywhere near as many and it's hard for the average person to justify having a MT on the average car.

While that's very true (especially the low #'s at dealers), with big V8s- like the LS1/2/3/6/7 and the HEMI, you seem pretty decent differences, and when it's the difference of a $1000+ tax it's very relevant IMHO.

You and I are not like most people. Most people do not do unadulterated performance. Hell, the reason why most people bought 04-07 STIs instead of Evos is because of aesthetics, drive comfort, and interior features. Evos are more performance oriented and unadulterated from the factory. Don't try to argue that, it's my opinion and it's very educated.

Touche. We'd all have Caterhams if that was the case.

[mcqueendrivesporsche]

Originally Posted by renns

Heh, I watch Top Gear too, but I'd be catching some hard lulz if you tried to breathe just the exhaust from a 997T.

Yea, I'd probably **** myself if I saw someone actually try.

[snorky]

Originally Posted by mcqueendrivesporsche

While that's very true (especially the low #'s at dealers), with big V8s- like the LS1/2/3/6/7 and the HEMI, you seem pretty decent differences, and when it's the difference of a $1000+ tax it's very relevant IMHO.



Touche. We'd all have Caterhams if that was the case.

I think it's safe to say that the ratio of MT vs. AT in big V8s today is very lopsided toward AT.

Don't even get me started on Caterhams. There's a local guy that autoxs a Westfield with a 'busa engine. :drool: Makes me wish I had more time and room.