GT30 - Perrin and PDXTuning

Flycaster · 09-03-2005, 09:00 PM

The Decision

About a month ago, I finally bit the bullet and ordered a power upgrade. I've been running a Cobb Stage 2 (Cobb catted TBE) but wanted some more top end since the factory snail falls off above 4.5k at my altitude (4,000ft ASL). I did a lot of research here and over at NASIOC since the last thing I wanted to do was install a package that worked just OK – iow, a second-guessed disappointment.

The first criterion I had was I wanted to be able to use the Cobb AP; the ability to reflash realtime maps and still have the factory ECU flexibility really appealed to me - not to mention the fact that I had already paid for the AP and didn't want to go thru the economic wash of switching to ECUTek, much less jumping over to a standalone system like the Hydra. I have nothing against either those systems (or the UTEC), rather the Cobb system was already paid for.

Secondly, I wanted a power system that 1) kept as much mid-range torque as possible, 2) had a "linear" top end HP delivery with good efficiency (more on this later), and 3) didn't exceed the "proven" power level that the stock block and clutch are capable of putting out on our pump gas (92 oct) since neither of those upgrades are in my current budget. After talking with several of the better known tuners, that number seems to be in the 340-370whp range. I fully realize that this "proven" number is not only debatable but is also *unproven* in that these motors just don't have enough miles on them yet; nonetheless, there are a quite a few cars with 15-20K miles on them that are making this kind of power that are holding up fine. From my reading on the issue, tune and driving style seem to the key factors. We'll see.

When I started my research over a year ago, the possibilities were limited: a couple of bolt-on kits (20G, FPGreen/DBSZ, SR40 and 55) and a few rotated mount kits that were still under development or in the early test stages. Much remains the same today, with the exception that all these snails are now pretty well understood by the major tuners. Obviously, the path of least resistance and cost is to go with one of the stock mount set-ups. Of these, the FPG/DBSZ made the most sense since there is a ton of experience with these blowers, they spool reasonably well, and they have the ability to make 350whp at reasonable pressures without needing outside safety equip. (such as W/I). The problem is, however, they run at the top of their efficiency envelope (21psi+) to get there. Remember, I live at altitude so to make sea-level power, I need more psi of boost. I needed a turbo with more overhead, but no spool-up penalty…the magic bullet, if you will. Frankly, if I lived down at sea-level, I’d just install a Green or a Red and call it a day.

So, the rotated turbos were the solution, but what to buy? I’d read the write-up about and had driven in a GT35R car, and that is certainly not what I wanted. It’s a great drag turbo on a built block, but I’m primarily a “canyon-car” guy and the thought of having that snail light up on the way out of a fast sweeper doesn’t tickle my fancy. I simply do not like power band “surprises”, much less having to replace pistons. Then these 3 threads came along over at NASIOC, and I got pretty excited:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ht=gt30+perrin
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=713329
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ht=gt30+perrin

To wrap this up and move on to the next post, my discussions with Jarrad and Tim at PDXTuning led to my ordering the still-in-development Perrin GT30R kit.

Flycaster · 09-03-2005, 09:11 PM

The Results

OK, here’s what you probably wanted to see in the first place:

The List:
Perrin GT30R kit - .63 A/R, 52lb wheel (turbo, lines, piping, up-pipe, wastegate, all clamps and fasteners)
Perrin FMIC
Perrin Big turbo intake
Perrin Big MAF
Perrin catless DP
Perrin Exchange Injectors (flow tested)
Greddy EVO 2 catless exhaust
Apexi AVC-R

Facts:
Pump gas – 92 Oct.
DA – 1,448 ft. (hot night at sea-level)

At the dyno (see below)

Flycaster · 09-03-2005, 09:11 PM

Afterthoughts:

The Install:

The FMIC is a PITA, and comes with no template for cutting the front bumper: cut a little, put it back on, take it off, cut a little more, yada, yada, yada. The turbo kit is still “in development”, so I’m willing to cut Jeff a little slack on some missing parts; he made good on them immediately. Nonetheless, when Jeff told my mechanic that certain fitments "didn't need" gaskets - well, let's just say we disagreed and and took other measures. Also, there were no (as in ZERO) directions or even pictures that came with the kit. A few significant clues would’ve been helpful, but my mechanic had to muddle his way thought it; this is NOT a job for a shade tree mechanic! The only other point of interest is to note that the ’04 requires extended exhaust hangers to get the Greddy mid-pipe and exhaust to mount without hitting the rear drive shaft and the diff housing. Why anyone would stick a large flange directly below a drive shaft is beyond me. Really, really dumb.

The clamps that come with the turbo kit are junk. I intend to swap them all out for t-clamps asap. Also, the hoses supplied for hooking up the stock BPV to the intake do not fit correctly, and I will have a custom one made. Right now, the hose runs over the top the intercooler pipes, which is not so…aesthetic.

It all “kinda” fits, and it all works with no problems, but you get where I’m going with this. Good companies, good guys, but a little more QC would be nice.

The Tune:

It was impressive to watch Tim and Jarrad work their dueling computers on the dyno runs. Tim couldn’t get the ProTuner to download the realtime info (a bug somewhere) so Jarrad had to hook up his laptop and capture the ECU and wideband info using ECUTek software, and then relay that info to Tim who would then adjust the maps using ProTuner. It took a little over 3 hours to get it all sorted out and this little beast finally tuned, but it was a pleasure to see them take their time and work up the runs in a very sequential and methodical manner. Professionals all the way.

They actually got the numbers a little higher (376 IIRC), but that was at 1.6bar and the power increase dropped from over 10/.1bar to 6/.1bar. As Jarrad pointed out, that was the car telling them it was “done” on pump. So, they dropped the final tune back to 1.5bar, with a taper off to 1.35bar in the higher rpms. To demonstrate how efficient this snail really is, consider this: the car made 340whp at 18psi, and it takes the FPGreen.DBSZ almost 21psi to make that. Extra overhead, indeed.

Finally, anyone considering a high horsepower dyno tune had better prepare themselves for the reality. Your car will make pull after pull after pull to redline. Anyone who says this doesn’t make them nervous, or who doesn’t get a little stressed out by it is full of BS – either that, or they’ve never heard an engine let go at full song. These guys know exactly what they are doing, however, so my stress level was lower than it might otherwise have been. Still, I didn’t stand behind the car on a pull since I’m not very adept at catching hot metallic pieces in my teeth.

Oh, and one more thing: in the Perrin kit (as hopefully is the case with ANY turbo kit) are a handful of zip-ties. Use them to snug up EVERY tube on the motor. You will otherwise be doing this on the dyno as you will blow every tube off that is not fastened securely. (yup, that'd be me.)

The Drive:

If this isn’t the magic bullet, or at least close to it, I don’t know what is. The power delivery is perfectly linear, with no sudden jumps anywhere, and is as comfortable loafing along at 2600rpm on the freeway as it is pulling to redline. Low to midrange is better than stock, with a little less torque than a good stage 2. From 3400 rpm on up, it’s no contest and it pulls savagely all the way to redline, which is, frankly, well above where I usually grab another gear. Jarrad warned me, and I warned my mechanic, and in spite of the warnings we both bounced it off the rev-limiter in 1st and 2nd the first time behind the wheel. In fact, 1st is just a joke since you cannot shift it fast enough, no matter how fast you are. 5th now pulls like 3rd did as a Stage 2. As both Jarrad and Tim stated, this turbo is the best “stock-block street package” there is, bar none. The Red makes the same top end, but it’s soft on the bottom due to slower spool. The Garrett BB turbos simply make it at both ends of the power curve whereas the stock mounted blowers have to compromise; you just can’t get around the far more efficient intake of the big Garretts, coupled with the advantage of an EWG. (And, yes, the stock bypass valve works just fine, but it is significantly louder now that it's no longer dumping into the muffled TMIC.)

Finally, the AVC-R is, IMO, a must-have item. First, the ECU can't handle the higher psi - it stops at 21 lbs. Not only that, but the AVC-R allows you to make several different turbo maps AND you have complete control over boost at any rpm. You end up with a truly customizable system that will allow you to adjust for OAT, DA, fuel type, etc. You will recall in my first post that I mentioned “overhead” and “altitude?” Well, because of the huge size of this blower’s compressor efficiency envelope, I can increase boost up where I live to end up making sea-level power.

But, at this point, I’m not too sure I want to: this thing is stupid-quick as is, even at 4,000 ft ASL. And at sea-level…well, let’s just say it’s even quicker and leave it at that.

04stiguy · 09-03-2005, 11:23 PM

Great review full of helpful info!!

Thanks

***Neanderthal Racing*** · 09-04-2005, 05:11 AM

what a beautifully thought-out and executed plan, fly. you knew exactly what you wanted out of it and you ruled out/in whatever it took to get you there. there are always adjustments needed along the way but you have to start with a sense of the big picture. well done. i loved the actual write-up itself. it's a pleasure to read something that is technically well written.

i hope we get a chance to meet one of these days.

jgheels2003 · 09-04-2005, 05:27 AM

Thats an excellent write-up and nice result. Couldn't have said it better on the FMIC and AVCR descriptions. Very linear looking power/torque curves. I noticed you mentioned it making 340whp at 18 psi. That to me is the most impressive part. Also the write-up couldn't be more honest, its not a torque monster, but it definately doesn't have to be. Good work!!

Adam · 09-04-2005, 10:15 AM

Please post pictures! I am very interested in this kit. I like the way you describe your wants and needs, and I feel there are many out there like you... I have almost identical wants and needs.

Can you give more info on who tuned the car, and who did the install? How about what the total cost was for your project? Everbody has that little voice in their head, is 5k worth all that power? Today, no, but tomrrow, yes its worth it!

I live in San Antonio Texas, not sure there are too many places with in 300 miles that I would allow to wrench on my car, let alone tune it like you spoke off, the stress of tunning would KILL me...

Thanks for your post, any more info would be great! If you dont want to post some of this info publicly, PM me.

Adam

cleatis · 09-04-2005, 10:54 AM

Pictures would be great but a good set of videos would be totally awesome........

nick

RadarOnPaws · 09-04-2005, 12:54 PM

Great write up. Too bad the kit is still as rough as it is, but you are spot on about PdxTuning - they rock! They really are true professionals all the way.

**evilSTi7** · 09-04-2005, 02:20 PM

just wondering, why didn't you go with the 20g? because it's not rotated?

Flycaster · 09-04-2005, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Please post pictures!

I'll try and do that tomorrow. No video, I'm afraid.

Quote:

Can you give more info on who tuned the car, and who did the install? How about what the total cost was for your project?

The package and tune was all put together by the folks at PDXTuning. As for cost, I haven't added it all up yet since I have some stuff to sell that will ultimately be deducted.

Flycaster · 09-04-2005, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilSTi7

just wondering, why didn't you go with the 20g? because it's not rotated?

Wonderful spool, but not enough top end. Great turbo for autocross, but on the Matrix mustang they only make about 315whp, tops (just for reference, stock STi's make about 220 on their dyno). IMO, that turbo is simply too close to the stocker to warrant the hassle - you're better off going to the Green/SZ. That's just my opinion, mind you.

And, the high horsepower numbers you see here for 20G's are invariably from Dynojet dynos. On one of those, my car would've registered somewhere in the 420whp range. Just wanted to point that out.

Flycaster · 09-04-2005, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgheels2003

The "high horsepower numbers" you are referring if you are referring to Topspeed's dynojet are in reference to 235-240whp stock readings. That is hardling high reading. I would be very specific in which 20g you refer to b/c not all produce numbers like Deadbolts. Those are nowhere near close to the stocker. Green/SZ are ever so slightly bigger.

I'm sure your car is great and I hope you are very happy with it.

jgheels2003 · 09-04-2005, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flycaster

I'm sure your car is great and I hope you are very happy with it.

I am, as I'm sure you are with yours. Took down post to avoid hijak. Keep the updates rolling!

mofoSTI · 09-05-2005, 05:55 AM

Very well done. I plan on a turbo upgrade next year and am leaning towards the green, but it is nice to here the pros and cons of your decision.

09-03-2005, 09:00 PM	#1
Flycaster S204 Racer Posts: 3,008 Join Date: Apr 2004 Trader Rating: (0)	GT30 - Perrin and PDXTuning The Decision About a month ago, I finally bit the bullet and ordered a power upgrade. I've been running a Cobb Stage 2 (Cobb catted TBE) but wanted some more top end since the factory snail falls off above 4.5k at my altitude (4,000ft ASL). I did a lot of research here and over at NASIOC since the last thing I wanted to do was install a package that worked just OK – iow, a second-guessed disappointment. The first criterion I had was I wanted to be able to use the Cobb AP; the ability to reflash realtime maps and still have the factory ECU flexibility really appealed to me - not to mention the fact that I had already paid for the AP and didn't want to go thru the economic wash of switching to ECUTek, much less jumping over to a standalone system like the Hydra. I have nothing against either those systems (or the UTEC), rather the Cobb system was already paid for. Secondly, I wanted a power system that 1) kept as much mid-range torque as possible, 2) had a "linear" top end HP delivery with good efficiency (more on this later), and 3) didn't exceed the "proven" power level that the stock block and clutch are capable of putting out on our pump gas (92 oct) since neither of those upgrades are in my current budget. After talking with several of the better known tuners, that number seems to be in the 340-370whp range. I fully realize that this "proven" number is not only debatable but is also unproven in that these motors just don't have enough miles on them yet; nonetheless, there are a quite a few cars with 15-20K miles on them that are making this kind of power that are holding up fine. From my reading on the issue, tune and driving style seem to the key factors. We'll see. When I started my research over a year ago, the possibilities were limited: a couple of bolt-on kits (20G, FPGreen/DBSZ, SR40 and 55) and a few rotated mount kits that were still under development or in the early test stages. Much remains the same today, with the exception that all these snails are now pretty well understood by the major tuners. Obviously, the path of least resistance and cost is to go with one of the stock mount set-ups. Of these, the FPG/DBSZ made the most sense since there is a ton of experience with these blowers, they spool reasonably well, and they have the ability to make 350whp at reasonable pressures without needing outside safety equip. (such as W/I). The problem is, however, they run at the top of their efficiency envelope (21psi+) to get there. Remember, I live at altitude so to make sea-level power, I need more psi of boost. I needed a turbo with more overhead, but no spool-up penalty…the magic bullet, if you will. Frankly, if I lived down at sea-level, I’d just install a Green or a Red and call it a day. So, the rotated turbos were the solution, but what to buy? I’d read the write-up about and had driven in a GT35R car, and that is certainly not what I wanted. It’s a great drag turbo on a built block, but I’m primarily a “canyon-car” guy and the thought of having that snail light up on the way out of a fast sweeper doesn’t tickle my fancy. I simply do not like power band “surprises”, much less having to replace pistons. Then these 3 threads came along over at NASIOC, and I got pretty excited: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ht=gt30+perrin http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=713329 http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ht=gt30+perrin To wrap this up and move on to the next post, my discussions with Jarrad and Tim at PDXTuning led to my ordering the still-in-development Perrin GT30R kit. This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad. Last edited by Flycaster : 09-03-2005 at 09:17 PM.

09-03-2005, 09:11 PM	#2
Flycaster S204 Racer Posts: 3,008 Join Date: Apr 2004 Trader Rating: (0)	GT30 cont'd - The Results The Results OK, here’s what you probably wanted to see in the first place: The List: Perrin GT30R kit - .63 A/R, 52lb wheel (turbo, lines, piping, up-pipe, wastegate, all clamps and fasteners) Perrin FMIC Perrin Big turbo intake Perrin Big MAF Perrin catless DP Perrin Exchange Injectors (flow tested) Greddy EVO 2 catless exhaust Apexi AVC-R Facts: Pump gas – 92 Oct. DA – 1,448 ft. (hot night at sea-level) At the dyno (see below) Attached Thumbnails

09-03-2005, 09:11 PM	#3
Flycaster S204 Racer Posts: 3,008 Join Date: Apr 2004 Trader Rating: (0)	GT30 cont'd - Final Thoughts Afterthoughts: The Install: The FMIC is a PITA, and comes with no template for cutting the front bumper: cut a little, put it back on, take it off, cut a little more, yada, yada, yada. The turbo kit is still “in development”, so I’m willing to cut Jeff a little slack on some missing parts; he made good on them immediately. Nonetheless, when Jeff told my mechanic that certain fitments "didn't need" gaskets - well, let's just say we disagreed and and took other measures. Also, there were no (as in ZERO) directions or even pictures that came with the kit. A few significant clues would’ve been helpful, but my mechanic had to muddle his way thought it; this is NOT a job for a shade tree mechanic! The only other point of interest is to note that the ’04 requires extended exhaust hangers to get the Greddy mid-pipe and exhaust to mount without hitting the rear drive shaft and the diff housing. Why anyone would stick a large flange directly below a drive shaft is beyond me. Really, really dumb. The clamps that come with the turbo kit are junk. I intend to swap them all out for t-clamps asap. Also, the hoses supplied for hooking up the stock BPV to the intake do not fit correctly, and I will have a custom one made. Right now, the hose runs over the top the intercooler pipes, which is not so…aesthetic. It all “kinda” fits, and it all works with no problems, but you get where I’m going with this. Good companies, good guys, but a little more QC would be nice. The Tune: It was impressive to watch Tim and Jarrad work their dueling computers on the dyno runs. Tim couldn’t get the ProTuner to download the realtime info (a bug somewhere) so Jarrad had to hook up his laptop and capture the ECU and wideband info using ECUTek software, and then relay that info to Tim who would then adjust the maps using ProTuner. It took a little over 3 hours to get it all sorted out and this little beast finally tuned, but it was a pleasure to see them take their time and work up the runs in a very sequential and methodical manner. Professionals all the way. They actually got the numbers a little higher (376 IIRC), but that was at 1.6bar and the power increase dropped from over 10/.1bar to 6/.1bar. As Jarrad pointed out, that was the car telling them it was “done” on pump. So, they dropped the final tune back to 1.5bar, with a taper off to 1.35bar in the higher rpms. To demonstrate how efficient this snail really is, consider this: the car made 340whp at 18psi, and it takes the FPGreen.DBSZ almost 21psi to make that. Extra overhead, indeed. Finally, anyone considering a high horsepower dyno tune had better prepare themselves for the reality. Your car will make pull after pull after pull to redline. Anyone who says this doesn’t make them nervous, or who doesn’t get a little stressed out by it is full of BS – either that, or they’ve never heard an engine let go at full song. These guys know exactly what they are doing, however, so my stress level was lower than it might otherwise have been. Still, I didn’t stand behind the car on a pull since I’m not very adept at catching hot metallic pieces in my teeth. Oh, and one more thing: in the Perrin kit (as hopefully is the case with ANY turbo kit) are a handful of zip-ties. Use them to snug up EVERY tube on the motor. You will otherwise be doing this on the dyno as you will blow every tube off that is not fastened securely. (yup, that'd be me.) The Drive: If this isn’t the magic bullet, or at least close to it, I don’t know what is. The power delivery is perfectly linear, with no sudden jumps anywhere, and is as comfortable loafing along at 2600rpm on the freeway as it is pulling to redline. Low to midrange is better than stock, with a little less torque than a good stage 2. From 3400 rpm on up, it’s no contest and it pulls savagely all the way to redline, which is, frankly, well above where I usually grab another gear. Jarrad warned me, and I warned my mechanic, and in spite of the warnings we both bounced it off the rev-limiter in 1st and 2nd the first time behind the wheel. In fact, 1st is just a joke since you cannot shift it fast enough, no matter how fast you are. 5th now pulls like 3rd did as a Stage 2. As both Jarrad and Tim stated, this turbo is the best “stock-block street package” there is, bar none. The Red makes the same top end, but it’s soft on the bottom due to slower spool. The Garrett BB turbos simply make it at both ends of the power curve whereas the stock mounted blowers have to compromise; you just can’t get around the far more efficient intake of the big Garretts, coupled with the advantage of an EWG. (And, yes, the stock bypass valve works just fine, but it is significantly louder now that it's no longer dumping into the muffled TMIC.) Finally, the AVC-R is, IMO, a must-have item. First, the ECU can't handle the higher psi - it stops at 21 lbs. Not only that, but the AVC-R allows you to make several different turbo maps AND you have complete control over boost at any rpm. You end up with a truly customizable system that will allow you to adjust for OAT, DA, fuel type, etc. You will recall in my first post that I mentioned “overhead” and “altitude?” Well, because of the huge size of this blower’s compressor efficiency envelope, I can increase boost up where I live to end up making sea-level power. But, at this point, I’m not too sure I want to: this thing is stupid-quick as is, even at 4,000 ft ASL. And at sea-level…well, let’s just say it’s even quicker and leave it at that. Last edited by Flycaster : 09-03-2005 at 09:41 PM.

09-05-2005, 05:55 AM	#15
mofoSTI Spec C Club Car: 08 STI,sr20det 510 Fav Mod: boob job for wife Location: springtuckey, OR Posts: 2,442 Join Date: Sep 2004 Trader Rating: (0)	Very well done. I plan on a turbo upgrade next year and am leaning towards the green, but it is nice to here the pros and cons of your decision. This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad.

09-03-2005, 11:23 PM	#4
04stiguy Senior STI Driver Car: '05 STi Fav Mod: Cusco Zero 2R's Posts: 336 Join Date: Jun 2004 Trader Rating: (0)	Great review full of helpful info!! Thanks

09-04-2005, 05:11 AM	#5
*Neanderthal Racing* GT R US Car: CUTN EDG project Fav Mod: $20. mudflaps from auto zone Location: my cave Posts: 5,847 Join Date: Dec 2003 Trader Rating: (1)	what a beautifully thought-out and executed plan, fly. you knew exactly what you wanted out of it and you ruled out/in whatever it took to get you there. there are always adjustments needed along the way but you have to start with a sense of the big picture. well done. i loved the actual write-up itself. it's a pleasure to read something that is technically well written. i hope we get a chance to meet one of these days.

09-04-2005, 05:27 AM	#6
jgheels2003 Spec C Club Car: 2003 Z06 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,214 Join Date: Oct 2004 Trader Rating: (3)	Thats an excellent write-up and nice result. Couldn't have said it better on the FMIC and AVCR descriptions. Very linear looking power/torque curves. I noticed you mentioned it making 340whp at 18 psi. That to me is the most impressive part. Also the write-up couldn't be more honest, its not a torque monster, but it definately doesn't have to be. Good work!!

09-04-2005, 10:15 AM	#7
Adam Junior STI Driver Posts: 122 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (0)	Please post pictures! I am very interested in this kit. I like the way you describe your wants and needs, and I feel there are many out there like you... I have almost identical wants and needs. Can you give more info on who tuned the car, and who did the install? How about what the total cost was for your project? Everbody has that little voice in their head, is 5k worth all that power? Today, no, but tomrrow, yes its worth it! I live in San Antonio Texas, not sure there are too many places with in 300 miles that I would allow to wrench on my car, let alone tune it like you spoke off, the stress of tunning would KILL me... Thanks for your post, any more info would be great! If you dont want to post some of this info publicly, PM me. Adam

09-04-2005, 10:54 AM	#8
cleatis Senior STI Driver Car: 07 SWP/ Gold Fav Mod: The next one Location: Castle Rock, CO Posts: 329 Join Date: Aug 2004 Trader Rating: (12)	Pictures would be great but a good set of videos would be totally awesome........ nick

09-04-2005, 12:54 PM	#9
RadarOnPaws S204 Racer Posts: 2,513 Join Date: Oct 2003 Trader Rating: (0)	Great write up. Too bad the kit is still as rough as it is, but you are spot on about PdxTuning - they rock! They really are true professionals all the way.

09-04-2005, 02:20 PM	#10
evilSTi7 The Hoff Fan Club, member #001 Car: 05 WRB/Gold Fav Mod: Hood Scoop Homer Location: Where ever The Hoff is! Posts: 10,325 Join Date: Jul 2004 Trader Rating: (4)	just wondering, why didn't you go with the 20g? because it's not rotated?