[Neanderthal Racing]

i saw your post on phil's 08 pump part number thread. i'm not sure what the answer is but, phil, trey cobb and howard all came to the same conclusion. even if the jdm cranks are xdrilled, in the absense of more comparative information, it's hard to say how relevant it is. it is interesting though.

[Flycaster]

Just to clear up any potential misunderstandings, my comment about Cobb's "not catching" this problem is in no way a slam. Bruce knows this, but I sure don't want anyone else to think otherwise. Trey and Jeremy were simply trying to improve bearing oiling, but the improvement has obviously resulted in a lower oil pressure at high revs - when you need it the most. Cross drilling cranks is nothing new, and it is usually a significant improvement in many engines.

What do you guys think? Mod? Howard? That the additional volume overcomes pretty much whatever sized pump can output, or is the layout of the cross drilling that Jeremy had done somehow causing the pressure to drop?

And then, why does a billet crank not have the same issues? Or, perhaps, does it and we just haven't heard about it yet since there are so damn few of them installed?

[Neanderthal Racing]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

What do you guys think? Mod? Howard? That the additional volume overcomes pretty much whatever sized pump can output, or is the layout of the cross drilling that Jeremy had done somehow causing the pressure to drop?

And then, why does a billet crank not have the same issues? Or, perhaps, does it and we just haven't heard about it yet since there are so damn few of them installed?

my friend, THEY are the questions of the day. if i thought there was a billet crank (or a drilling pattern protocol) that would solve the issue, i'd have it shipped to phil today.

[jigga]

have you given thought to running a more substantial oil in your engine? This is the 15w50 version of the 5w30 and 10w30 oil that pull a disappearing act in stock engines is it not? Wouldn't be a shock to see that other 15w50 oils from other manufacturers do a better job of resisting heat in the engine. I have not seen the specs on the Mobil 1 stuff, but if their 5w30 and 10w30 oil is thinner than others out there, what does that say about their 15w50?

Another thing that someone suggested is to run a single viscosity oil... Not sure what effect that would have over the multi-viscosity oils.....especially on a track car like yours.

Alternatively, you could just run an oil cooler no?

[Neanderthal Racing]

Originally Posted by jigga

have you given thought to running a more substantial oil in your engine? This is the 15w50 version of the 5w30 and 10w30 oil that pull a disappearing act in stock engines is it not? Wouldn't be a shock to see that other 15w50 oils from other manufacturers do a better job of resisting heat in the engine. I have not seen the specs on the Mobil 1 stuff, but if their 5w30 and 10w30 oil is thinner than others out there, what does that say about their 15w50?

i've been consistent about how much i hate m1 for 4 years now so you don't have to convince me. i saw it's disappearing act in my stock motor. that said, during 4 sessions on the track and about 250 -300 miles of street driving i only used 1/2 qt w/ ~8 oz total in the catch can. that ain't too shaby.

i'm not a technician much less an engineer but, i don't think a switch in oil would have made that much difference. it showed a 10 psi deficit at 7k and it wasn't climbing. at 8k, i'm pretty sure we'd still be looking at 60 total psi and a 20 psi deficit. that's seems like a lot of deficit to make up just by changing the weight or brand. i'm not a closed book, though and i'm interested in any and all constructive comments and suggestions.

Originally Posted by jigga

Alternatively, you could just run an oil cooler no?

we only saw a max of 220 f in the spring temps on saturday but the dog days of summer will be a completely different story. i think an oil cooler and getting our accusump operational are definate priorities. i'm also going to look into the oil pan and baffling system from cosworth. i don't know if i really need the larger oil pan with a 3 litter accusump on board but i'm going to give everything consideration.

i can say one thing; the amount of money i've got into the project is about to go up considerably.

[modaddict]

The billet cranks have a completely different drilline, IIRC, where the oil hole in the rod, intersects the galley passage at the mains. There isn't a 90* transition I don't believe (like stock is, IIRC).

I'll have to dig up the "crossdrilling our crankshafts" thread on NASIOC. There's some GREAT info in that thread. even has pics.

here' you go
Cross-drilling our crankshafts? - NASIOC

[modaddict]

another good thread:
Improving the 257 scrankshaft - NASIOC

I've done a bunch of reading about this crap over the years. (been worried about bearing failures )

here's some quotes from quirt about the stock crank, vs. the billet cranks. (he's about the only vendor that I could find quoting about crank oiling issues. most of the posts are from 2006). Phil has chimed in and I know he likes the stock crank, i've seen him post a few times about that.

(BTW, i think you should get a billet or aftermarket crank, IMO.)

Originally Posted by Crawford Performance

We see no benifit in cross drilling the stock crank for any RPM.
That being said, our billet cranks are not cross drilled, rather they have a totally different style of oiling system than the stock crankshaft.
Quirt
www.crawfordperformacne.com

[quote=Crawford/I-Speed;14247277]The Big Valley STI that we sponsor put down 710 wheel HP using a stock crank. Since then we have replaced it with our Billet crank which is one pound lighter and has a better oiling system for the increased loads / RPM. The new billet crank has given us rod bearings that could be reused after a teardown for inspection.
[quote]

[jigga]

Originally Posted by Neanderthal Racing

i've been consistent about how much i hate m1 for 4 years now so you don't have to convince me. i saw it's disappearing act in my stock motor. that said, during 4 sessions on the track and about 250 -300 miles of street driving i only used 1/2 qt w/ ~8 oz total in the catch can. that ain't too shaby.

i'm not a technician much less an engineer but, i don't think a switch in oil would have made that much difference. it showed a 10 psi deficit at 7k and it wasn't climbing. at 8k, i'm pretty sure we'd still be looking at 60 total psi and a 20 psi deficit. that's seems like a lot of deficit to make up just by changing the weight or brand. i'm not a closed book, though and i'm interested in any and all constructive comments and suggestions.



we only saw a max of 220 f in the spring temps on saturday but the dog days of summer will be a completely different story. i think an oil cooler and getting our accusump operational are definite priorities. i'm also going to look into the oil pan and baffling system from Cosworth. i don't know if i really need the larger oil pan with a 3 litter accusump on board but i'm going to give everything consideration.

i can say one thing; the amount of money i've got into the project is about to go up considerably.

I wouldn't discount how much of a difference that changing oil manufacturer could have on the car. Perhaps one of those heavy duty diesel applications is all you need to have the kind of pressure you need at the top of the rev range. I would at least do a bit of research to find something more stout that would handle the heat better. I am doing that right now, and from what I have found already, something such as Amsoil although similar viscosity has a much higher tolerance for heat and is less volatile also than Mobil 1 15w50. I am sure that there are even better than Amsoil, but it takes time to dig through all the different oils out there looking for the juicy details on all of them.

I'm not an engineer either, but if the many spun bearings on the ej205 could be traced back to many of them running on Mobil 1's synthetic, that shows the effect that one company's oil can have. Also, if you can have a company like Royal Purple's oil consistently making more power on any given engine (because it is thinner than advertised I think was the reason), that again shows that there is a good deal going on behind the simple viscosity labels printed on the bottles. I took some time to see what it was about the M1 that was leaving engines susceptible to spun bearings compared to other oils, and then made the switch.

Sign up on Bob's the oil guy forums and do some reading on the different oils and the like.

Or perhaps try a non-synthetic racing oil like the Valvoline VR1 oil. the non-synthetic oil has larger molecules than usual, and again, might serve to bump up your oil pressure all over the place.

The Cosworth oil pan might also be a good addition since it can keep more oil available at the oil pickup at elevated revs where I am sure that the rate at which oil is being sucked out of the oil pan is increasing (due to the cross-drilled crank). I would be very curious to see though if just the addition of the oil pan does anything for the situation. I wonder what Cosworth has to say about it. i know some have said to try running more oil than usual (even up to 7 quarts --> sounds like a lot, and is not as bad as it sounds after the engine starts up and starts circulating the oil around, but since some of the oil is always circulating in the engine, it will keep an ample supply for those high-rpm trips.).

Going to a thinner oil is a quick way to lower your oil pressure all over the place... Going thicker would do the opposite, which is what we want

The accusump system from what I have read about it seems like it would work well also for a track car like yours.

[Flycaster]

You know guys, there is the "other" issue which we haven't discussed yet, since we won't know the answer until the motor is torn down. Namely, what bearing clearances did Jeremy use and were the bearings coated when he set the clearance? Just a few 10 thou either way, and that pressure will change.

[Neanderthal Racing]

great discussion here, guys. that nasioc crossdrilling thread is killer, mod. that's some assembly of talent put to the subject.

[boostedrex05]

Bruce what if the cross drilled wholes are smaller this time. Maybe they were drilled to large.

It's gotta be possible to do since like Modaddict said the JDM EJ205 comes stock with a cross drilled crank.

(Insert smiley here)

LOL

[modaddict]

If you really can spare a few hrs, I put together a "stickied" thread in the "Built Motor Discussion" forum on NASIOC.

"Built Motor Discussion" Links to Great Threads - NASIOC

It has about 8 great threads on the subaru oiling sytem.

caution though: sift through the B.S as usual

[boostedrex05]

Originally Posted by modaddict

If you really can spare a few hrs, I put together a "stickied" thread in the "Built Motor Discussion" forum on NASIOC.

"Built Motor Discussion" Links to Great Threads - NASIOC

It has about 8 great threads on the subaru oiling sytem.

caution though: sift through the B.S as usual

look's like some good info to be found. I'll read threw it since I plain on building the block and heads up over the winter for next summer my goal is 650whp

[BenW]

Man, I was hoping to see this thing pound out the rest of the season without any more crap. But I guess that's the price you pay for absurdly complex and badass parts.

Originally Posted by AR Fab

Our facility's doors are always open 24/7 for customers of your level

What about the rest of us?

edit: f***, beaten

[Brandi@ARFab]

We always take the 24/7 approach... I have set up dyno appointments as late as 4am during the week....Sold race gas to racers at all hours of the nite....even opened the doors for headgaskets and other misc items below $100 in the past...


Anyways...I would rather not get into what you guys need to do about the crank but will re-iterate that crossdrilling is not the optimum way to get oil to the rod bearings. Its stated on the Nausea(lol) thread already.

The factory EJ20, EJ257, Brian Crower crankshafts are all crossdrilled.

I have measured the oiling holes in the past when this came up and found only a few thousands worth of difference between the size of the holes.

Straight-through oiling designs are the proper way to supply oil the rod bearing and I only know of 2 crank manufacturers that make EJ cranks with this design.

I will quote something I found from SCAT...this quote is pertaining to a V8 crank but it will help you guys understand why and why not...


This is directly quoted from SCAT TECH.....

The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.
Nowhere is this more true than in straight shot oil system designed into all SCAT cranks. With the throw at 12:00 the oil enters the main bearing between 6:00 and 9:00 depending on journal size and stroke. The oil passage goes straight through and exits at approx. 1:30-2:00. RPM of the crankshaft unlike cross-drilling has no effect on oil delivery the throw.

What is cross-drilling?
Cross drilled cranks have oil feed holes drilled completely throughout the journals. Sometimes mains only and sometimes mains and throws. An angle hole is then drilled from the throw to the main on the centerline of the crank. Some think this system, because both ends of the crossdrilled hole are exposed to oil supply, will ensure continuous supply of oil to the rod journal.

WRONG!!
Pressurized oil must enter the main journal and overcome centrifugal force of rapid acceleration or RPM to reach the center of the crank before the oil can travel to the throw. Only increased oil pressure will overcome the "crack the whip affect". In most cases it will not and the result is a very expensive rod failure. For sure you do not see any NASCAR teams using cross-drilled cranks.

I figured I would share this with you.

The "in most cases it will not work" quote...maybe some of us have been able to get away with adding pressure...but most dont have a clue what they are doing and just know that shimming the pumps at least helps the problem..

We have given into helping the problem but know what needs to be done to actually correct the problem also. The correction to the problem is not within manys budget. BTW CATS Billet crank is over $3800 retail...I approached them several years ago at PRI...There is another alternative crank manufacturer that we know about that has the crank for under $1800 that has straight shot oiling also....I have yet to use this crank or actually handle it in my hands...I know its straight shot but am not willing to support the manufacturer until I actually test it.

Howard