[Boosted1]

I am just telling you what my tuner said.
Call up PDXTuning and ask to talk to Tim Bailey, he is the one who told me.

[jph]

Originally Posted by Majin

i agree... makes more sense to have the hood open, if not just for the heat under the hood to escape better.

i believe that the 06 TMIC sits at a different angle that helps cooling.
or at least, i recall reading something about it. that might have something to do with it.

J.

[Siegel Racing]

same car:

Stock TMIC = 347 wlb-ft, 314 whp
TXS TMIC = 360 wlb-ft, 324

I think he went from 12.7's to 12.4's with it...

SS

[Majin]

Originally Posted by jph

i believe that the 06 TMIC sits at a different angle that helps cooling.
or at least, i recall reading something about it. that might have something to do with it.

J.

you are correct with the 06 - i was referring to the point made before where they were talking about that car on a dyno.

[Majin]

Originally Posted by Subaru of Gwinnett

same car:

Stock TMIC = 347 wlb-ft, 314 whp
TXS TMIC = 360 wlb-ft, 324

I think he went from 12.7's to 12.4's with it...

SS

i think that with a difference of 13 wtq and 10 whp, those track times may have improved because of the driver, not the TMIC.

[Siegel Racing]

I think it might have been more of a real-world gain > dyno gain, that's why I posted it

SS

[Majin]

i see...

[twiSTies]

Originally Posted by Subaru of Gwinnett

same car:

Stock TMIC = 347 wlb-ft, 314 whp
TXS TMIC = 360 wlb-ft, 324

I think he went from 12.7's to 12.4's with it...

SS

did you do any additional tuning to get that gain or was it simply a bolt on and go mod?

i already am protuned and am interested in doing this mod, but i don't know how the car will react.

[StoreBoght]

Originally Posted by Subaru of Gwinnett

same car:

Stock TMIC = 347 wlb-ft, 314 whp
TXS TMIC = 360 wlb-ft, 324



SS

That's good info

[Majin]

Originally Posted by twiSTies

did you do any additional tuning to get that gain or was it simply a bolt on and go mod?

i already am protuned and am interested in doing this mod, but i don't know how the car will react.

you should get re-tuned if you swap in a different IC

[twiSTies]

Originally Posted by Majin

you should get re-tuned if you swap in a different IC

Damn. Then I'm going to wait until I get the turbo inlet, APS header (maybe a 20g) and meth then. haha may as well wait until i have an entire setup..

[StoreBoght]

if you just switch a tmic i dont think you really need to tune for it, maybe a fmic

[sashin]

Originally Posted by stretch

Nice post, Dave.

The one thing you touched on (that I expected someone to chime in on) is the thickness of the core and how the front of the core gets much cooler air than the latter portion. This is quite true. The intercooler's thickness grows 50% with the upgrade, from 3 inches to 4.5. A typical FMIC is 3.5" thick- a difference of one inch. I'll have to look at the TMIC closer to see if it tries to flow more air (via shaped caps) through the top of the vanes- some do, and that would help. Now, also keep in mind that the TMIC's many short vanes tend to be more effective than a FMIC's fewer, longer vanes. I know it's not enough to call this a draw, but the difference in core efficiency (for its size) may not be large, either, depending on other design parameters.

In regards to the "heat sink" analagy- at a cursery glance it appears as if air would flow through it more easily from the hood scoop due to wider, more numerous vanes. This makes the hood scoop's cooling charge more effective for the simple reason that more air can flow through it. Additionally, as has been said before, with the lower pressure drop of the big TMIC, the intercooler physically has less heat to dissipate. The turbo won't create as much heat. This isn't an advantage over a FMIC but it's the primary benefit of any aftermarket intercooler over stock.

So, if you want to consider the TMIC a heat sink, it's a larger heatsink that is also coupled to a larger fan. This "larger fan" effect is an advantage of a FMIC, but a good TMIC (with a huge hood scoop) does get you partially there. Actually, unless the STI's water sprayer is relocated for the FMIC, I'd have a hard time a TMIC with constant water spraying over 14psi (as you had) isn't the more effective setup.

Somewhere, I've seen measurements of the flow created by the STI scoop and splitter. I don't have a clue what the measurements were, but I remember thinking they were impressive. That hood scoop works very well, probably because the sloped hood creates a very dense region of air. It is this volume of air to the intercooler that seperates a TMIC and FMIC: the FMIC will always get more air flow. I only question the severity of the flow difference and the impact it makes on something like a 20g.

In road racing (since you mentioned it) where the car is averaging over 70mph, flow should not be an issue to either intercooler. It's true that the FMIC would always have an advantage, but there are deminishing returns in regards to intercooler size just as there is to air flow. Twice as large of an intercooler does not equal twice the cooling capacity, nor does twice as much air blowing on an intercooler mean twice the cooling capacity. I think cooling capacity is an inverse square (or cube?) of core size. That said, the core sizes are:

STI TMIC: 300 in^3
Big TMIC: 630 in^3
Most FMIC: 900-1000 in^3

So basically, a big top-mount gives you twice the stock core size while a front-mount gives you three times the stock core size. But with all of these, there are deminishing returns in regards to cooling capacity. For that reason, it is far more beneficial to concentrate on not creating the heat in the first place: make sure your engine has a good ambient air intake source (a cold air intake), an unrestrictive intake path, and an intercooler with a low pressure drop. This all adds up to the turbo not having to work as hard, creating less heat, and there are not deminishing returns here. If a FMIC required a short ram intake for fitment, the increased intake temperatures of the short ram may take an impossibly larger intercooler to compensate for.

The point of this is that I think a TMIC gets you 80-90% of the cooling benefits of a FMIC, at 15% of the cost, and without the numerous fitment-induced drawbacks.

Ya know, with some time, a textbook, and a calculator, I think enough measurements have been posted here and on NASIOC to definitively calculate the difference in charge temperatures. However, it's the theory that interests me most, so I'm just going to stick with it and DaveNow's results of gaining 20whp on a TMIC. I definately agree with you that a FMIC is the better-performing intercooler, but I think its price is hard to justify on anything but really big turbos. And, if you can't keep a proper ambient air intake and the STI's intercooler water sprayer, the FMIC may never be worth it. The 20g may be in gray area, but I'd still keep the TMIC for simplicity's sake and spend the money elsewhere.

However, the topic of this thread is, "Is there any benefit of upgrading to a better TMIC?"

Answer: Yes, many.

great post dave A+++++

[jph]

Originally Posted by twiSTies

did you do any additional tuning to get that gain or was it simply a bolt on and go mod?

i already am protuned and am interested in doing this mod, but i don't know how the car will react.

Hey Scott, i'd like to know this too.
was any additional tuning done to achieve these after numbers ?
or; same tune, different intercoler ?

J.

[Siegel Racing]

It was tuned for it...

It didn't take much tuning, but we certainly smoothed stuff back out...

Just putting on the big TMIC will generally cause a notable boost increase. I'd have to say you should talk to your tuner. If it's me, I'll tell you I need to check it after installing the TMIC. It would certainly be fine to drive to the tuner, but I would have it checked before beating on it...

SS