Ring Lands?

nightfire · 04-24-2005, 12:45 AM

I've been searching around this website for the past few days and it seems that most people think that the STi can make 400+ Whp with a bigger turbo, but everyone says the ring lands won't hold. I'm not a car expert so I thought I'd ask here what exactly is a "ring land"? I'm guessing it's the piston ring or something but i'm not sure. Also, can you get stronger ring lands to avoid this situation?

nightfire · 04-24-2005, 07:27 AM

Ok thanks for the pics. So I guess the whole problem could be solved by just putting in forged pistons? If so how come everyone is makeing a big deal about it, if they want 400+ Whp and they have the money to do a fuel pump, injectors, turbo upgrade, and still drop a lot of money on tires and wheels then springing some money for forged pistons should be no problem.

Xman · 04-24-2005, 09:28 AM

yes, forged pistons would help. People are complaining because they are people and people always need something to complain about. Especially in online forums. Also all the other markets with the 2.0L STi engine come with forged pistons from the factory.

They should be complaining about spening $500+ on a bling exhaust or $800-$1k on an intercooler. Many other Subaru parts are MUCH more overpriced than pistons.

I agree with you 100%.

gesundlich · 04-24-2005, 10:53 AM

Nope. JDM V8 2.0L EJ207 changed over to hyperuetectic cast pistons, similar to ours. V7 and earlier models have the forged pistons. Supposedly the hypereutectic pistons are "stronger" (per SOA) but at the expense of being more brittle (and hence MUCH less detonation resistant). Either way, USMD STi's are making pretty insane power (more than 500whp) on stock internals. How long they last will depend on the quality of the tune (and appropriate ancillary hardware). From reading other's results, the majority of cracked ringlands seem to be from earlier attempts to upgrade the STi's power, when the aftermarket was somewhat lacking. Less and less ringland failures have been showing up, now that the appropriate aftermarket support is showing up and people are figuring out how to really SAFELY tune STis for big power. Of course, a good set of forged pistons may broaden the detonation resistance of the STi, but you can still destroy a built motor if your tune sucks.

nightfire · 04-24-2005, 11:25 AM

How exactly has the tuning changed for the STi to make it safer? Different components or just tuning a stand alone system differently? Sorry for the noob question but I'm not to familiar with tuning STi's as you can see.

Xman · 04-24-2005, 11:42 AM

the STi ECM was a major advancement over previous versions of the ECU. It employs two processor instead of one and different tuning parameter related to the AVCS, so the entire US aftermarket had to kind of start over to figure out the ECM as well as figure out how to tune for 2.5l and the new turbo. The things that worked before did not work as well on the USDM STi. It was simply a learning curve as geslundlich stated. Remember, the STi has now been in the US for two years now, that is a very long timeline for development. Significant knowledge has been gained and suitable engine management solutions now exist. If you look back at the early threads on this forum you will see that we had to figure out all the specs and details of the car before we could move forward. Even the basics like the block construction, piston matierals, turbo design, etc etc had to be figured out. The car was basically a black box that had to be analyzed and tested to figure out what would work. The aftermarket for the STi at that time was basically nonexistant and the only parts you could get were the parts that swapped directly from WRXs or generic peices like boost controllers. You johnny-come-lately really benefit from the guys who got the cars first and did all the investigation and work to support what is now available. It really has come a LONG way.

nightfire · 04-24-2005, 11:53 AM

Thanks for the info Xman. That's awesome how much has been figured out in the last two years. Do you think the US STi engine's capabilities will eventually surpass that of the Evo's 4G63? The 4G63 has been out for soo long that people now know exactly what works best on it so there isn't really any guessing. Since people are still figuring out the US Spec 2.5L engine it seems like we still have a lot to learn and we seem to be already breeching the power figures of the 4G63. Yes the 4G63 has an iron block but the STi has .5 more L of displacement. Sorry for the long post of saying the same think, I just wanted to get my comments/ questions across.

Xman · 04-24-2005, 12:02 PM

no, the 4G63 cast iron block is just physically stronger than the STi die cast aluminum, therefore can tolerate higher cylinder pressures and therefore put out more power. I don't expect the STi to put out the same HP/L figures with the same durability as a cast iron block, but the EJ257 is impressive. Maybe some tuners will prove me wrong, but that is my take on the comparison.

tuswm · 05-11-2005, 08:53 AM

Hey maybe crawford will come out with a 3.5L cast iron closed deck block with fully built internals aswell. Then I am sure we could surpass the EVO and the 996 TT while we are at it. Its just a matter or time.

There are some sick STI now on nasioc under proven power bragging.

RiX · 05-11-2005, 11:57 AM

Hmmm 3.5L... yummy. Would you like biturbos to go with that?

ScoreBo · 09-11-2006, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nightfire

How exactly has the tuning changed for the STi to make it safer? Different components or just tuning a stand alone system differently? Sorry for the noob question but I'm not to familiar with tuning STi's as you can see.

Manual or even electronic boost controllers without adding fuel would be a great example. It took almost a year to get tunable engine management out for the STi with the drive-by-wire setup. I watched a buddy break ring lands with nothing more than an electronic boost controller.

anthongy817 · 09-11-2006, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScoreBo

Manual or even electronic boost controllers without adding fuel would be a great example. It took almost a year to get tunable engine management out for the STi with the drive-by-wire setup. I watched a buddy break ring lands with nothing more than an electronic boost controller.

Did he turn up the boost..?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xman

yes, forged pistons would help. People are complaining because they are people and people always need something to complain about. Especially in online forums. Also all the other markets with the 2.0L STi engine come with forged pistons from the factory.

They should be complaining about spening $500+ on a bling exhaust or $800-$1k on an intercooler. Many other Subaru parts are MUCH more overpriced than pistons.

I agree with you 100%.

I believe you would have to pull the shortblock to be able to swap in the forged pistons and that is an additiona $1500 in labor fees.

SubieSteve · 11-28-2007, 11:02 PM

Yeah, could somebody post or send me the pics of the ring land. Im in the same boat as well, im pretty sure i have a broken ring land and all i got was a tune. I was told it was rather conservative.... (somebody remind me not to go back to that guy again...)
If anybody has any projections on cost of repair or tips for dealing with this would be greatly appreciated.

Phil 05 · 12-01-2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gesundlich

Nope. JDM V8 2.0L EJ207 changed over to hyperuetectic cast pistons, similar to ours. V7 and earlier models have the forged pistons. Supposedly the hypereutectic pistons are "stronger" (per SOA) but at the expense of being more brittle (and hence MUCH less detonation resistant). Either way, USMD STi's are making pretty insane power (more than 500whp) on stock internals. How long they last will depend on the quality of the tune (and appropriate ancillary hardware). From reading other's results, the majority of cracked ringlands seem to be from earlier attempts to upgrade the STi's power, when the aftermarket was somewhat lacking. Less and less ringland failures have been showing up, now that the appropriate aftermarket support is showing up and people are figuring out how to really SAFELY tune STis for big power. Of course, a good set of forged pistons may broaden the detonation resistance of the STi, but you can still destroy a built motor if your tune sucks.

I agree 100%. STI internals are built for higher horsepower as long as the car is tuned properly. Basically, the STI is overbuilt to withstand the abuse to the car in rallying.

gOt_rally? · 12-01-2007, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil 05

I agree 100%. STI internals are built for higher horsepower as long as the car is tuned properly. Basically, the STI is overbuilt to withstand the abuse to the car in rallying.

Rally cars use the 2.0 liter jdm block.

04-24-2005, 12:45 AM	#1
nightfire Junior STI Driver Location: North Jersey Posts: 57 Join Date: Apr 2005 Trader Rating: (0)	Ring Lands? I've been searching around this website for the past few days and it seems that most people think that the STi can make 400+ Whp with a bigger turbo, but everyone says the ring lands won't hold. I'm not a car expert so I thought I'd ask here what exactly is a "ring land"? I'm guessing it's the piston ring or something but i'm not sure. Also, can you get stronger ring lands to avoid this situation? This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad.

04-24-2005, 10:53 AM	#4
gesundlich Professional STI Driver Car: 04 STi Fav Mod: driving lessons :) Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 418 Join Date: Oct 2002 Trader Rating: (12)	pistons Nope. JDM V8 2.0L EJ207 changed over to hyperuetectic cast pistons, similar to ours. V7 and earlier models have the forged pistons. Supposedly the hypereutectic pistons are "stronger" (per SOA) but at the expense of being more brittle (and hence MUCH less detonation resistant). Either way, USMD STi's are making pretty insane power (more than 500whp) on stock internals. How long they last will depend on the quality of the tune (and appropriate ancillary hardware). From reading other's results, the majority of cracked ringlands seem to be from earlier attempts to upgrade the STi's power, when the aftermarket was somewhat lacking. Less and less ringland failures have been showing up, now that the appropriate aftermarket support is showing up and people are figuring out how to really SAFELY tune STis for big power. Of course, a good set of forged pistons may broaden the detonation resistance of the STi, but you can still destroy a built motor if your tune sucks.

04-24-2005, 11:25 AM	#5
nightfire Junior STI Driver Location: North Jersey Posts: 57 Join Date: Apr 2005 Trader Rating: (0)	How exactly has the tuning changed for the STi to make it safer? Different components or just tuning a stand alone system differently? Sorry for the noob question but I'm not to familiar with tuning STi's as you can see. Last edited by nightfire : 04-24-2005 at 11:29 AM.

11-28-2007, 11:02 PM	#13
SubieSteve Lurker Car: 06 WRX TR Fav Mod: Coming Soon Posts: 1 Join Date: Nov 2007 Trader Rating: (0)	Re: Ring Lands? Yeah, could somebody post or send me the pics of the ring land. Im in the same boat as well, im pretty sure i have a broken ring land and all i got was a tune. I was told it was rather conservative.... (somebody remind me not to go back to that guy again...) If anybody has any projections on cost of repair or tips for dealing with this would be greatly appreciated.

04-24-2005, 07:27 AM	#2
nightfire Junior STI Driver Location: North Jersey Posts: 57 Join Date: Apr 2005 Trader Rating: (0)	Ok thanks for the pics. So I guess the whole problem could be solved by just putting in forged pistons? If so how come everyone is makeing a big deal about it, if they want 400+ Whp and they have the money to do a fuel pump, injectors, turbo upgrade, and still drop a lot of money on tires and wheels then springing some money for forged pistons should be no problem.

04-24-2005, 09:28 AM	#3
Xman S204 Racer Car: 2004 STi Fav Mod: Momo fixed back seat, harness bar and Willans 6 point harness Location: Rancho Santa Margarita, C Posts: 2,827 Join Date: Apr 2003 Trader Rating: (3)	yes, forged pistons would help. People are complaining because they are people and people always need something to complain about. Especially in online forums. Also all the other markets with the 2.0L STi engine come with forged pistons from the factory. They should be complaining about spening $500+ on a bling exhaust or $800-$1k on an intercooler. Many other Subaru parts are MUCH more overpriced than pistons. I agree with you 100%.

04-24-2005, 11:42 AM	#6
Xman S204 Racer Car: 2004 STi Fav Mod: Momo fixed back seat, harness bar and Willans 6 point harness Location: Rancho Santa Margarita, C Posts: 2,827 Join Date: Apr 2003 Trader Rating: (3)	the STi ECM was a major advancement over previous versions of the ECU. It employs two processor instead of one and different tuning parameter related to the AVCS, so the entire US aftermarket had to kind of start over to figure out the ECM as well as figure out how to tune for 2.5l and the new turbo. The things that worked before did not work as well on the USDM STi. It was simply a learning curve as geslundlich stated. Remember, the STi has now been in the US for two years now, that is a very long timeline for development. Significant knowledge has been gained and suitable engine management solutions now exist. If you look back at the early threads on this forum you will see that we had to figure out all the specs and details of the car before we could move forward. Even the basics like the block construction, piston matierals, turbo design, etc etc had to be figured out. The car was basically a black box that had to be analyzed and tested to figure out what would work. The aftermarket for the STi at that time was basically nonexistant and the only parts you could get were the parts that swapped directly from WRXs or generic peices like boost controllers. You johnny-come-lately really benefit from the guys who got the cars first and did all the investigation and work to support what is now available. It really has come a LONG way.

04-24-2005, 11:53 AM	#7
nightfire Junior STI Driver Location: North Jersey Posts: 57 Join Date: Apr 2005 Trader Rating: (0)	Thanks for the info Xman. That's awesome how much has been figured out in the last two years. Do you think the US STi engine's capabilities will eventually surpass that of the Evo's 4G63? The 4G63 has been out for soo long that people now know exactly what works best on it so there isn't really any guessing. Since people are still figuring out the US Spec 2.5L engine it seems like we still have a lot to learn and we seem to be already breeching the power figures of the 4G63. Yes the 4G63 has an iron block but the STi has .5 more L of displacement. Sorry for the long post of saying the same think, I just wanted to get my comments/ questions across.

04-24-2005, 12:02 PM	#8
Xman S204 Racer Car: 2004 STi Fav Mod: Momo fixed back seat, harness bar and Willans 6 point harness Location: Rancho Santa Margarita, C Posts: 2,827 Join Date: Apr 2003 Trader Rating: (3)	no, the 4G63 cast iron block is just physically stronger than the STi die cast aluminum, therefore can tolerate higher cylinder pressures and therefore put out more power. I don't expect the STi to put out the same HP/L figures with the same durability as a cast iron block, but the EJ257 is impressive. Maybe some tuners will prove me wrong, but that is my take on the comparison.

05-11-2005, 08:53 AM	#9
tuswm Professional STI Driver Car: my STI Fav Mod: Sr. loan officer Location: gaithersburg MD Posts: 471 Join Date: Dec 2004 Trader Rating: (0)	Hey maybe crawford will come out with a 3.5L cast iron closed deck block with fully built internals aswell. Then I am sure we could surpass the EVO and the 996 TT while we are at it. Its just a matter or time. There are some sick STI now on nasioc under proven power bragging.

05-11-2005, 11:57 AM	#10
RiX Professional STI Driver Car: Driving Fav Mod: Driving school... GT35R :) Location: In my STi Posts: 455 Join Date: Apr 2003 Trader Rating: (0)	Hmmm 3.5L... yummy. Would you like biturbos to go with that?