[BenW]

Originally Posted by Varanont

Gabedude,

After my 07 blew up at 13k, and my car was put back together, I had my car tuned by one of the top tuners in the mid-atlantic, Hill from Agile Auto. I asked him about zeroing out the Open loop, closed loop delay, and he spoke to Cobb and concluded that this was not the best way to deal with the 07's and preventing them from blowing up.

I am not a tuner, but i do know that other tuners agree with your philosophy and zero out these tables, and others do not. Can you explain the variances in tuning philosphies in laymans terms? Sell me on why your method of tuning is better.

the closed loop delay is only one piece of the puzzle dude. the timing strategy is the other.

we've had this conversation all over the internet, and Gabe is probably tired of repeating himself. do a search on his username.

I do not agree with Hill or Cobb's stance. I do agree with Gabe's method and have tuned 07s successfully with great results. Many pro tuners also follow Gabe's findings.

[starxidiam]

so maybe i should flash Gabedudes map instead of COBB stage one?

[weasel936]

starxidiam, i would and do use gabedude's maps, im now stage 2 xpt map. but gabedude's stage 1 maps are good, all you need is the tactrix cable and a laptop, you can log his map and see what ur car is doing and see if it's liking it and tweak it due to your gas and location. it's a hell alot cheaper than cobbs and just read all you can about opensource tuning and go to romraider.com or xpttuning.com with any questions you may have. opensource i believe is the way to go, just my .2 cents.


Rey

[gabedude]

Originally Posted by Varanont

Gabedude,

After my 07 blew up at 13k, and my car was put back together, I had my car tuned by one of the top tuners in the mid-atlantic, Hill from Agile Auto. I asked him about zeroing out the Open loop, closed loop delay, and he spoke to Cobb and concluded that this was not the best way to deal with the 07's and preventing them from blowing up.

I am not a tuner, but i do know that other tuners agree with your philosophy and zero out these tables, and others do not. Can you explain the variances in tuning philosphies in laymans terms? Sell me on why your method of tuning is better.

I am not a professional tuner. I just love scoobies and I will be the first one to point out flaws. If this makes me the bad guy, but forces Subaru to do something about it, I don't care because we all benefit. If I didn't love my 07 STI, I wouldn't have my engine sitting in the garage awaiting valvestem seals. I wouldn't have an 06 STI either.

There is a lot of confusion for end users to understand the differences in all of the timing maps, which ones to zero out, which ones to keep stock, etc. Many tuners have used this confusion (whether they mean to or not) to their own advantage stating things like "I understand how to tune it correctly". Yes, you can tune with all 4 DA tables active. I am sorry but I will and always will zero the one added timing table and tune the car like an 04-06 STI. Sometimes I tune them like a WRX. This is only one area of the mapping that needs attention however. There are many pitfalls and factors involved in getting an 07 STI tuned correctly. Simply put, the easiest and best way (IMHO) is to make the car tune like a EU 07 STI. You do this by zeroing the O/L C/L delay and zeroing 2 of the 4 DA tables. I typically add in more knock protection (pull more timing per knock event, have it added back in slower, etc). The 07 STI ECU is quite complex. Simply put, to get a solid tune that acts like an EU STI or an earlier USDM WRX, follow my tuning guide. I am not going to bother laying out all of the factors that make the timing maps switch and combine. They are environmental factors mainly and they can all be chalked up to emissions. Stand alone EMS systems are not this complex as they do not need to be. My tuning guide is available for any tuner to use. It only outlines how to tune the car like a regular WRX or a non-USDM STI.

The same conversation / debate raged on months ago about the "correct" way to tune the timing tables on the Cobb Tuner only forums. Forget about the O/L C/L delay (I don't always keep this zero either, it can be tuned several different ways to switch into open loop at the right time). What tuners refer to is the 4 DA tables and multiple base timing tables. This interaction is made for USDM emissions.

What I think tuners are missing is that the "extra" timing that is added in sometimes also enables other tables. You have to understand the whole effect and I have yet to see one tune that did not miss something except from 2 professional tuners (and several non-pro tuners who tune actively with romraider/ecuflash) which would be Chris at XXTuning and Jorge at P&L. Also, these tuners tune the car like a WRX or older STI, not using the new STI logic that caused so many modded cars to blow before the extra DA table was found. These two also pushed Cobb to look at our findings about the missing DA table. These two guys are open minded and simply rely on their own results to get their customers coming back again and again.

Now we see mostly stock cars going boom after ~20k average miles instead of modded ones. I hope that all of my preaching and pushing the issue had some effect on this trend, which is a good one.

Whether you are tuned by open source or by a Cobb AP, they both have access to all necessary tables to tune the car in different ways. Neither is correct IMHO, there are just different ways to skin the same cat.

-Gabe

[BenW]

I agree completely Gabe. I zero 2 of the DA tables and tune it like a EDM STI, including the throttle mapping, zero OL/CL, and 04-06 STI knock settings.

I love the 07 STI ECU. Just not the way it's mapped from the factory.

[gabedude]

Yeah, but you are one of those "non-pro tuners" I was referring to Ben.

One of the longevity keys there that you hit on more exactly is the amount of timing pulled per knock event. Changing this from the default of -1.4 to -2 and the timeouts to match earlier STIs is a very good idea. One thing to note however, is that the EDM STI pulls the same amount of timing (-1.4) and has the same timeouts as the USDM 07 STI. It is also the same on the 06WRX+. So, this may not be entirely necessary. However, once you have more load on the engine, every knock event is that much more damaging. Keeping them at a minimum is the best idea and that means switching to known good values with a WRX style tune.

-Gabe

[Templar]

Originally Posted by b0nd18t

owning an sti and not being able to mod the engine is like dangling chocolate in front of a fat kid. if you need me, ill be busy doing some evo research..

Dude you think STi have issues, you have no idea what's in store for you if you get an EVO.

[Black_Sun]

Originally Posted by Templar

Dude you think STi have issues, you have no idea what's in store for you if you get an EVO.

You nailed it right on the head!

[b0nd18t]

i was just venting. youd be a little pissed too if your brand new $36k investment broke in less than a year. please. and to update, I put my car back to stock and did my own compression test and it came out perfect. so i guess i dodged a bullet. what a terrible ordeal i was put through; best of luck to the rest of you.

[Black_Sun]

Originally Posted by b0nd18t

i was just venting. youd be a little pissed too if your brand new $36k investment broke in less than a year. please. and to update, I put my car back to stock and did my own compression test and it came out perfect. so i guess i dodged a bullet. what a terrible ordeal i was put through; best of luck to the rest of you.

yeah... I would be a little pissed too... Glad your car is ok though....

[dvsti07]

I wonder how long these engines last? I bought an 07 back on november. I only have 5,000miles. For what you are saying I don't think these cars will last more than 50k My main reason for getting a STI was because its a Subaru. I heard Mitsubishi's are not good.