[gabedude]

It has been over a year now since I have explained all of the issues with the 07 STI.

Mitsu simply did the right thing in 2007 and did not make an EVO because of the new emissions standards and spent the time to make a car that adheres to LEV2 without blowing up. They were smart. Subaru added more "fixes" to the same crappy setup for the 08 STI. Subaru is in the middle of a class action lawsuit because of the recall on a huge batch of 08 motors. IMHO, this problem is much worse than the 04 STI problem where Subaru simply was awarded a waver for their bad tune. Mitsubishi is a larger company than FHI. It is really sad that something like emissions can make Subaru's turbo cars less and less reliable. If you look at the trend, the most reliable turbo subie made in the USA was the 02-03 WRX. I have seen a ton of these take abuse that would toast an 04 and up turbo subaru motor and they still last over 100k miles (MBCs, no EM, etc). IMHO, Subaru really needs to get their act together in strengthening their pistons while developing a proper catalyst system and engine management strategy that works with USA emissions. Remember that the only problem Subaru has in the USA, but still, they refuse to deal with it in an honest way. We made Subaru into what it is today (I alone gave them over 100k dollars). VW, Mitsu and Volvo can do it, but Subaru cannot. Hell, even GM can do it now. The 07-08 turbo engines are just crap IMHO. Subaru really has a brand recognition identity crisis. They were vaulted into being a larger automaker almost overnight with the release of the 02 WRX in the states and never picked up the talent to keep up with what the rest of the industry is keeping up with. Now they are playing lawyer games and CYA crap with environmentally friendly commercials. Just my analysis of all of this after a year of owning one of the first 07's that bit the dust within the first 3k miles. I bought one of the first 2002 WRXs that roiled off the boat in 2001. What I did to that car would have blown any 2005+ turbo Subaru in a matter of days. It never blew up and I drove that thing like I stole it.

Downpipe and fluids go in tonight on my 07. I hope my build has made it as reliable as my old 02 was. I have been very meticulous in building this thing now.

[starxidiam]

back to stage one, i havent floored it or anything yet. im driving it pretty soft till 1000 miles. i still need to data log. i havent found anyone that has a tactrix cable and a friend to borrow a laptop haha.

[Dragicon]

Originally Posted by starxidiam

back to stage one, i havent floored it or anything yet. im driving it pretty soft till 1000 miles. i still need to data log. i havent found anyone that has a tactrix cable and a friend to borrow a laptop haha.

well the cable is only $80 or so.., so it might be worth the investment.

[07STILimited]

Originally Posted by gabedude

Mitsu simply did the right thing in 2007 and did not make an EVO because of the new emissions standards and spent the time to make a car that adheres to LEV2 without blowing up. They were smart.

Don't forget that even if Mitsubishi passed emissions, they still would have had to use completely different seats, redesign the doors and go through crash testing until they perfected their new design to meet safety standards. The Evo IX had a two star side impact rating and no side airbags. I think this had a lot to do with their decision.

[jordanretro1223]

Originally Posted by 07STILimited

Don't forget that even if Mitsubishi passed emissions, they still would have had to use completely different seats, redesign the doors and go through crash testing until they perfected their new design to meet safety standards. The Evo IX had a two star side impact rating and no side airbags. I think this had a lot to do with their decision.

I agree, whether they waited or not, Mitsubishi probably still would have gotten it right. I bet even if Mitsubishi put out the car in 07 it would have been fine engine wise. I say this because I feel that if FHI or Mitsubishi is in the car industry they should be able to adhere while still putting out a quality product. They're paying their engineers enough money that they can make them work some overtime to tune the car correctly and adhere to standards.

I'm pretty sure if Subaru was a little more meticulous and tested further, even in the time they allotted, their setup could have been better. But waiting a year wouldn't have hurt either.

[Dragicon]

So why is this LEV2 issue only a STI issue, and not WRX, LGT, FXT issue? That (before you guys explain why) is why i am so confused right now.

[gabedude]

Originally Posted by Dragicon

So why is this LEV2 issue only a STI issue, and not WRX, LGT, FXT issue? That (before you guys explain why) is why i am so confused right now.

Same engine, more load, more stress. Add to that, the ECU logic is different because of the load and stress causes more emissions. The 07 STI has one air pump port, the 07 WRX has two. The STI required a different EM strategy in the USA because of emissions. The EU Spec 07 STI runs a WRX like mapping and 0's the O/L C/L delay. They do not have as strict of emissions standards and they have better gas. Those cars are not blowing up but they have the same hard parts. It is a USDM thing.

Why do you think FHI kept the same ECU logic on the 08 STI (tweaked a bit), added a slightly larger turbo to hit the magic 300 mark, lowered the rev limit, added a higher flowing fuel pump while keeping the same injectors and added exhaust AVCS? And that hunk of junk is still slower than a stock 04-07 STI in a straight line. So is the new EVO. They had to tone them down so they would not blow. Just like the other small compact turbo cars, 300 is hard to hit with todays USDM emissions in place without grenading a motor. But hey, they both have a brand image to uphold.

[jordanretro1223]

Originally Posted by gabedude

Same engine, more load, more stress. Add to that, the ECU logic is different because of the load and stress causes more emissions. The 07 STI has one air pump port, the 07 WRX has two. The STI required a different EM strategy in the USA because of emissions. The EU Spec 07 STI runs a WRX like mapping and 0's the O/L C/L delay. They do not have as strict of emissions standards and they have better gas. Those cars are not blowing up but they have the same hard parts. It is a USDM thing.

Why do you think FHI kept the same ECU logic on the 08 STI (tweaked a bit), added a slightly larger turbo to hit the magic 300 mark, lowered the rev limit, added a higher flowing fuel pump while keeping the same injectors and added exhaust AVCS? And that hunk of junk is still slower than a stock 04-07 STI in a straight line. So is the new EVO. They had to tone them down so they would not blow. Just like the other small compact turbo cars, 300 is hard to hit with todays USDM emissions in place without grenading a motor. But hey, they both have a brand image to uphold.

Well said Gabe. It's def a shame though.

Whatever though, I love my 07 to death. I'm happy with it. The motor/drivetrain is stock, the only mods I have are few suspension tid bits, and if something happens I should get a new motor.

[boost_happy]

Originally Posted by gabedude

Same engine, more load, more stress. Add to that, the ECU logic is different because of the load and stress causes more emissions. The 07 STI has one air pump port, the 07 WRX has two. The STI required a different EM strategy in the USA because of emissions. The EU Spec 07 STI runs a WRX like mapping and 0's the O/L C/L delay. They do not have as strict of emissions standards and they have better gas. Those cars are not blowing up but they have the same hard parts. It is a USDM thing.

Why do you think FHI kept the same ECU logic on the 08 STI (tweaked a bit), added a slightly larger turbo to hit the magic 300 mark, lowered the rev limit, added a higher flowing fuel pump while keeping the same injectors and added exhaust AVCS? And that hunk of junk is still slower than a stock 04-07 STI in a straight line. So is the new EVO. They had to tone them down so they would not blow. Just like the other small compact turbo cars, 300 is hard to hit with todays USDM emissions in place without grenading a motor. But hey, they both have a brand image to uphold.

You sure are talking quite negative about subaru considering you have owned four or more of them??? Just my .04 cents... By the way, 06's rock it ha ha

[Fearsys]

Just out of curiosity, what are the chances of the engines that was repaired or replaced to blow the #4 piston again? if it was a full motor swap, do they recieve a salvage title?

[Varanont]

Gabedude,

After my 07 blew up at 13k, and my car was put back together, I had my car tuned by one of the top tuners in the mid-atlantic, Hill from Agile Auto. I asked him about zeroing out the Open loop, closed loop delay, and he spoke to Cobb and concluded that this was not the best way to deal with the 07's and preventing them from blowing up.

I am not a tuner, but i do know that other tuners agree with your philosophy and zero out these tables, and others do not. Can you explain the variances in tuning philosphies in laymans terms? Sell me on why your method of tuning is better.

[jordanretro1223]

Originally Posted by Varanont

Gabedude,

After my 07 blew up at 13k, and my car was put back together, I had my car tuned by one of the top tuners in the mid-atlantic, Hill from Agile Auto. I asked him about zeroing out the Open loop, closed loop delay, and he spoke to Cobb and concluded that this was not the best way to deal with the 07's and preventing them from blowing up.

I am not a tuner, but i do know that other tuners agree with your philosophy and zero out these tables, and others do not. Can you explain the variances in tuning philosphies in laymans terms? Sell me on why your method of tuning is better.

He's explained it many times man in different places.

There is basically no right or wrong way according to Gabe and I got the same impression when I talked to your tuner Hill earlier this year. Hill is a very knowledgeable guy and I got the impression that he knows his stuff. Basically if I ever need a protune he's where I'm going.

The way it seemed is that Hill, and he said this to me, felt that he'd researched the 07 and had found out when the ECU adds timing with those extra tables and based on that he tunes the extra tables.

Gabe (no long term access to dyno), on the other hand, wants it to tune like old Subys, and the way it should be, as far as I'm concerned, and only run the timing you tell the car to run. To achieve this you zero the one advance table, C I think. Could be wrong there but I forget.

And I don't think he zero's the delay, it's still in there.

[WRX4ME LE 482]

That delay totally sucks. It is what causes the car to hesitate, and go lean under boost (if it is sufficiently high that is). Last I heard, Gabe's logic for keeping a small amount of delay is it keeps the car in closed loop at higher load. This helps the car to learn top end fueling quicker, which is something it only does in closed loop. That's why he says if your fuel is high quality and doesnt change a lot, you can still 0 the delay. Otherwise, you want the ECU to learn the fuel as fast as possible.

I have, however, seen many instances where the 07 with stock mapping does not knock while going lean under boost. That's partially because I have good gas, and always add some cheap octane booster just in case. For this reason, you can get away with some delay. I just wouldnt use the full stock delay.

[jordanretro1223]

^^^I agree. I think Gabe's is like a third of the stock delay.

[rgt]

Well if there is one good piece of news out of this issue, at least folks who read this site are not having much trouble. In the thread where everyone is posting their 07 mileage i count only two people who have had blown engines. Sounds like its still a small percentage of cars out there that its happening to.

I'm going cobb OTS stage 2 tomorrow and hopefully the car will be fine. I waited 4 years to buy a subie and i am not going to let this SOA crap ruin my fun. If the engine blows ... well fine.