[jordanretro1223]

Originally Posted by 07STILimited

Is it Subaru of America that is actually tuning these cars? I always assumed that since they were built in Japan, the Japanese developed all of the ECU maps.

On a side note, this is one of the points I keep trying to make. If a richer, safer tune is possible while still passing emissions why don't they reflash the 07s?

I think another reason why they won't just reflash the ecu to make them run richer and safer has to do with the injectors. Gabe has proven this, if you reset the ecu and go WOT you run the risk of running our of fuel at sea level, which causes more damage than some knock.

When you reset the ecu you are supposed to hit the fuel targets the ecu laid out (of course this changes based an other factors; fuel, ethanol content, air temp etc.). After driving it around for a while it leans out up to 9-10% in the D range. So if SOA issued a reflash that ran even richer than the stock map, and still conform with LEV2 (running 14:7 AFR's into full boost, the strategy SOA used), it would run the risk of running out of fuel even sooner unless they gave us bigger injectors and possibly a different FP when we went into the dealer for the flash. Correct me if I'm looking at this wrong (sorry for the mis-information in that case).

What I don't understand about the EVO X is how it doesn't have the same problems with lean conditions and running stoich up into full boost. Doesn't Mitsubishi have to conform to LEV2 also?

[07STILimited]

Originally Posted by jordanretro1223

I think another reason why they won't just reflash the ecu to make them run richer and safer has to do with the injectors. Gabe has proven this, if you reset the ecu and go WOT you run the risk of running our of fuel at sea level, which causes more damage than some knock.

When you reset the ecu you are supposed to hit the fuel targets the ecu laid out (of course this changes based an other factors; fuel, ethanol content, air temp etc.). After driving it around for a while it leans out up to 9-10% in the D range. So if SOA issued a reflash that ran even richer than the stock map, and still conform with LEV2 (running 14:7 AFR's into full boost, the strategy SOA used), it would run the risk of running out of fuel even sooner unless they gave us bigger injectors and possibly a different FP when we went into the dealer for the flash. Correct me if I'm looking at this wrong (sorry for the mis-information in that case).

What I don't understand about the EVO X is how it doesn't have the same problems with lean conditions and running stoich up into full boost. Doesn't Mitsubishi have to conform to LEV2 also?

But this running out of fuel problem doesn't happen with stage one because it doesn't not need to conform to LEV2, correct? Are there any circumstances either with the stock tune or with cobb stage one that I'd have to worry about this problem? Being in Florida my car does 100% of its driving at sea level. My highest driving elevation is probably a 6 story parking garage by the beach.

[jordanretro1223]

Originally Posted by 07STILimited

But this running out of fuel problem doesn't happen with stage one because it doesn't not need to conform to LEV2, correct? Are there any circumstances either with the stock tune or with cobb stage one that I'd have to worry about this problem? Being in Florida my car does 100% of its driving at sea level. My highest driving elevation is probably a 6 story parking garage by the beach.

Yeah if, lets say, you flash Cobb stage 1 or Gabe's free stage one you'd be fine. Most logs I've seen of Cobb stage 1 I've seen 93-96% IDC's.

Logs of Gabe's map after leaning out I've seen 92-95% IDC's.

So you won't have to worry about running out of fuel. But keep in mind on the stock map you only run this risk after a reset of the ecu. If you want to stay on the stock tune, go for it, it's your car, but don't reset the ecu. If you haven't recently then you won't run out of fuel under WOT because the ecu leans out so much. And if you do have to reset the ecu for some reason just drive it conservatively until it leans out (tank or two of gas).

The stock map can see 105%+ IDC's on a reset of the ecu in hot weather (less dense air). In cold weather (the winter) it would be higher of course.

[Mart]

uhm where can I find that gabe stage one map?

[starxidiam]

noob question what are IDC's?

[jordanretro1223]

Originally Posted by Mart

uhm where can I find that gabe stage one map?

OSEcu Roms & XPT Tuning • Index page

You have to register but it's free (same process as registering for iwsti for example).

Originally Posted by starxidiam

noob question what are IDC's?

Injector duty cycle.

[Flycaster]

Originally Posted by jordanretro1223

What I don't understand about the EVO X is how it doesn't have the same problems with lean conditions and running stoich up into full boost. Doesn't Mitsubishi have to conform to LEV2 also?

Sure it does. I haven't seen a log of one of these motors, but you've seen one and it is the same? I don't frequent their boards so I'm totally ignorant about those cars, other than the fact that I know those little in-line 4's are tough.

You know, I don't have a problem with the stoich AFR's up until, say, 2.5-2.6K, under low loads and TPS - that's going to approximate the high end of a top gear, highway cruise for most guys, and that's where I thought the LEV2 was aimed. In fact, I think a few guys (like modaddict) have even had their tuners do this for them to regain as much long distance fuel economy as possible. OTOH, it's the stoich ratio at full load with the turbo spooled up that raises the hair on the back of my head. I don't get it - what kind of "fuel economy" do you get at WOT anyway?

I need to read up on LEV2 so I get a better understanding of what's at play here...

[jordanretro1223]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

You know, I don't have a problem with the stoich AFR's up until, say, 2.5-2.6K, under low loads and TPS - that's going to approximate the high end of a top gear, highway cruise for most guys, and that's where I thought the LEV2 was aimed. In fact, I think a few guys (like modaddict) have even had their tuners do this for them to regain as much long distance fuel economy as possible. OTOH, it's the stoich ratio at full load with the turbo spooled up that raises the hair on the back of my head. I don't get it - what kind of "fuel economy" do you get at WOT anyway?

Yeah I agree with all this.

I have seen those kind of tunes that run lean so people can get higher fuel economy (modaddict) just cruising or on the highway. How do you think honda, saturn, toyota claim 35+ mpg (running them lean is part of the reason).

And yeah that's what I was getting at, the stoich ratio under full load and full boost. There is a thread on nasioc right now of a guy with his evo X. 10:1 AFR's and 23 PSI STOCK!!! I was shocked.

The thread: my stock evo X dyno day - NASIOC

I mean I've never seen an EVO log let alone an evo X log so I don't know what their map does but from what I've heard they don't have the same things implemented as SOA did. But then again maybe Mitsubishi figured out how to run the car safely and still conform to LEV2, maybe SOA should have taken 2007 off and researched instead of making a hack job. I'd hope that was the reason for no EVO X in 2007...

[starxidiam]

whats a normal number for IDC's?

[Flycaster]

Originally Posted by jordanretro1223

The thread: my stock evo X dyno day - NASIOC...

Interesting, but that's stupid rich, not lean. Regardless, he claimed it ran 10:1 AFR's with no fluctuation and made 23psi in the bone stock configuration? That doesn't add up - something isn't right. 10:1 is what most pipe sniffers will default to if they are not properly hooked up and I'll wager that's what happened. Also, 23 psi stock? Is there any other independant confirmation of this? That's a crap load of boost, and I gotta wonder if this isn't actually a MAP read, and not a boost read...but what do I know?

[Flycaster]

Originally Posted by starxidiam

whats a normal number for IDC's?

A better question is "what's an ideal number?" Frankly, you should ideally see maximum IDC's @ 85% on the dyno (assuming you're tuned at sea-level) - that gives you plenty of headroom for cold or low pressure days. What's interesting is that you can see IDC's as high as 110% in the logs - doesn't make any sense, does it? I guess 100% doesn't mean the same thing it used to.

[starxidiam]

well where i live it is about sea level. so on the AP can i read IDC's?

[jordanretro1223]

Originally Posted by starxidiam

well where i live it is about sea level. so on the AP can i read IDC's?

I don't think it has that capability.

You'd have to use some sort of logging software (romraider w/ a tactrix cable).

[Dragicon]

Just thought i would chime in here, but when i logged my car last year, i was only running 87% of the injectors with an OTS cobb stage 2 car. I do live at 4500 feet though. This was logged in december, so i will actually buy a cable this summer and log again. Here is my chart though.

[jordanretro1223]

Yeah higher elevation means less dense air, which means the car flows less air and needs less fuel.

From the research Gabe did, he claimed that being at elevation really alleviated SOME (not most) of the negatives of the stock tune. It actually helps the car run safer on the stock tune, if thats possible...