[07STILimited]

I don't get this. Almost EVERY single thread I read about an 07 engine failing is about an engine that does NOT have the stock tune. Almost every single high mileage 07 STI I read about that is in great shape is bone stock. When I point this out people just tell me to search more and that if I cared about my car I'd get an AP2 and reflash to stage one. How do these people explain this though? This guy's stage one engine failed and my stock engine is running stronger than ever with significantly more miles on it.

[Flycaster]

Originally Posted by 07STILimited

I don't get this...

Understandable. Everything, except for the OEM wanky tune, is opinion or conjecture. My guess is this: the reason why you see cars with tunes going down is [primarily] due to the fact that the pistons were already stressed prior to the tune. IOW, the detonation that ocurred while the owner initially drove the car on the horribly lean OEM map had already weakened the ring lands, and then once the set up was properly tuned, the additional power (think stress) finally caused the pistons to fail. And this was in spite of now having a much safer tune.

[07STILimited]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

Understandable. Everything, except for the OEM wanky tune, is opinion or conjecture. My guess is this: the reason why you see cars with tunes going down is [primarily] due to the fact that the pistons were already stressed prior to the tune. IOW, the detonation that ocurred while the owner initially drove the car on the horribly lean OEM map had already weakened the ring lands, and then once the set up was properly tuned, the additional power (think stress) finally caused the pistons to fail. And this was in spite of now having a much safer tune.

I've read this explanation before, but it still doesn't add up for me. This guy's car is only stage one. According to some threads stage one gives you little or no power gain. Certainly driving a car 35,000 miles with the stock tune must put more strain on the engine than driving it 15,000 with a stage one tune on it. People with 9,000 miles on their cars that go stage 2 and blow them up seem to blame it on the stock tune. Does that mean all these 07s with the stock tune with 25,000 more miles on them have been weakened, damaged and on the verge of failing for 25,000 miles? Here's what I am not seeing:

a lot of stock 2007 STIs with major engine damage
a lot of tuned 2007 STIs that are problem free with high miles on them

I know the consensus here says tuned STIs are better off, but the evidence I keep finding does not support that.

[Flycaster]

Well, we all draw conclusions based on what we read, hear and know. Based on what I've read on all 3 boards, I'm seeing something completely different. There are probably 30-40 different threads on the boards, most of them not here. I haven't done anything scientific like a spreadsheet analyis of the cars, but my take is that there are a lot of stock STi's with blown motors, and a fair number of tuned ones that went down as well. So, when I put that together with the known bad OEM ECU map, I come to my conclusion. I'm not saying it's "right", rather that's just what I think.

Moreover, anybody who understands the first thing about tuning, will quickly "get" the danger of the OEM map. Those AFR's are an engine killer, amigo, simple as that.

[07STILimited]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

Moreover, anybody who understands the first thing about tuning, will quickly "get" the danger of the OEM map. Those AFR's are an engine killer, amigo, simple as that.

This is another confusing area to me. I willingly admit that I don't know if the stock tune is dangerous or not. What makes no sense to me is that if the stock map is so obviously and blatantly going to kill the engine then why did Subaru sell thousands of cars with this map? If anybody who understands tuning would understand why this is such a dangerous map then everyone at Subaru must not understand tuning. I understand they are limited by the EPA, but why would they sell all these cars with expensive engines that they warranty for 60,000 miles if they knew they were going to blow up?

On top of that.. why would the 08 be able to pass emissions and make more power with a safe map with only a few minor physical changes to the engine?

I just find it hard to believe that Subaru is that incompetent, and would put themselves at big financial risk without doing anything to try to fix it. I do believe that it is likely there were physical problems with some of the 07 engines if some were produced in a new facility. That makes more sense to me than it purely being an issue with the map.

[Flycaster]

Originally Posted by 07STILimited

...What makes no sense to me is that if the stock map is so obviously and blatantly going to kill the engine then why did Subaru sell thousands of cars with this map?

This was Subaru's attempt to deal with LEV2, it's as simple as that. I know it's a difficult concept to wrap your head around, but it's true. Trust me, I had problems accepting this too until I actually saw the logs for myself - I'm no ECU tuner, but I've been putting motors together and racing cars since the late 60's and I've never seen a tune like that, ever. They screwed the USDM map up royally in '04, and they screwed it up again royally in '07.

[07STILimited]

Okay, fair enough. I guess this is just never going to make perfect sense to me. If the emission standards are no less stringent in 08 than they were in 07 I just don't get why the 08 car wouldn't have the same issues when it has essentially the same engine.

[Rootus]

Originally Posted by 07STILimited

Okay, fair enough. I guess this is just never going to make perfect sense to me. If the emission standards are no less stringent in 08 than they were in 07 I just don't get why the 08 car wouldn't have the same issues when it has essentially the same engine.

And why does Mitsubishi not have the same tuning issues with the Evo X?

Flycaster seems like a real smart guy, but I agree with 07STILimited that before I accept that there is really a problem with the tune, I ought to be able to answer the questions "Why would Subaru do this?" and "is it possible they know something about engine tuning that I don't?" LEV2 may be an answer for the first one, but if it is, it leads me to wanting an answer for the very first question in this post.

[NMZ]

ouch so whats the update? how was the driving and why is it blowing up!

[BBBsti LTD]

2008 are knocking too, just take a look at a stock graph and you will see the same dip in the TQ. Just wait to a data log software to come out and people to start datalogging.

Since 2005 the WRX came with the delay in OL/CL, and they are still running stock (meaning with the delay on it).

I believe that other than the new timing logic something else is going on (hardware wise).

SOA MUST learn for the EVO tune, I, 100,000,000 times prefer my car to run rich like the EVO X and have no knock (by looking at the dyno graph on an EVO X It is SMOOTH) that having the OEM tune in my 2007 STI.

All I know I WILL think lot about buying another Subaru!

[Flycaster]

Originally Posted by Rootus

...it leads me to wanting an answer for the very first question in this post.

Root, I'm confused - which question is that? Not that I know the answer...

Also, to get some really informed points of view, it'd be nice for guys like Christian (Cobb), Bailey, and Jorge to chime in. They have, independantly from one another, in several (lots, actually) threads but never in place at the same time.

[07STILimited]

Originally Posted by BBBsti LTD

SOA MUST learn for the EVO tune, I, 100,000,000 times prefer my car to run rich like the EVO X and have no knock (by looking at the dyno graph on an EVO X It is SMOOTH) that having the OEM tune in my 2007 STI.

Is it Subaru of America that is actually tuning these cars? I always assumed that since they were built in Japan, the Japanese developed all of the ECU maps.

On a side note, this is one of the points I keep trying to make. If a richer, safer tune is possible while still passing emissions why don't they reflash the 07s?

[BBBsti LTD]

Originally Posted by 07STILimited

Is it Subaru of America that is actually tuning these cars? I always assumed that since they were built in Japan, the Japanese developed all of the ECU maps.

On a side note, this is one of the points I keep trying to make. If a richer, safer tune is possible while still passing emissions why don't they reflash the 07s?

My understanding is that Fuji built the cars as per SOA specs and requirements after EPA process.

[Flycaster]

Originally Posted by 07STILimited

..If a richer, safer tune is possible while still passing emissions why don't they reflash the 07s?

That's the $64K question. Not to rehash history, but if you guys were around in '04 you'd remember that most of us were asking the exact same question. When they finally came out with the re-flash, many of the dealers were not informed, and SOA ultimately never acknowledged that there was any problem whatsoever. And SOA was going thru warrantied shortblocks like crap thru a goose, especially in California with its lovely 91 pisstane.

You know, it's a little ironic because in my case, the only reason I even got started down the mod road in the first place was because I could hear my engine detonating on warm days, and I was looking for a solution. If not for that...

FWIW, guys, Subaru isn't the first auto company to lay turd like this. I could tell you a story about a Porsche Carrera I owned that would have you all doing the same thing we're doing here, namely, "what on earth were they thinking?"

[07STILimited]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

That's the $64K question. Not to rehash history, but if you guys were around in '04 you'd remember that most of us were asking the exact same question. When they finally came out with the re-flash, many of the dealers were not informed, and SOA ultimately never acknowledged that there was any problem whatsoever. And SOA was going thru warrantied shortblocks like crap thru a goose, especially in California with its lovely 91 pisstane.

You know, it's a little ironic because in my case, the only reason I even got started down the mod road in the first place was because I could hear my engine detonating on warm days, and I was looking for a solution. If not for that...

Well if that's the case then maybe I am just giving SOA too much credit. I am fortunate enough to not live in CA anymore where you get that horrible fuel. My car has only been given 93 since it was new. I find it pretty funny that all STIs are tuned for only 93 octane. In the manual it specifically says to only use 93 and that 91 can be temporarily substituted if there is no 93 available. They sell these cars in states where there will never be 93 available though! Even before all of the BS that has been going on in CA lately I don't remember it ever being higher than 92. I went to a gas station here in FL the other day and it gave me the choice of 87, 88, 89, 91 or 93. All five choices had more actual gasoline than anything available in CA as well. Only problem is there is no Angeles Crest here...