[Muffnbluff]

Originally Posted by Turninconcepts.com

I see nothing in there about the P&L EWG setup. In fact, EWG setups are a subject for another essay. Will the P&L be mentioned? Probably. Why? Because it's an example of a quality part that works well. Afterall, we don't believe in selling parts that don't work well. Why? Because parts that don't work well suck. Bad parts waste your money, and both of our time.

I'll probably be buying one from you guys soon.

Jorge from P&L is my tuner BTW.

edit: For giggles do you happen to have a pic of the P&L pipe next to the stocker?

[VSGTS14]

i have my gt spec uppipe wrapped also and boy is it NICE compared to the stock one. this thread rules, the stocker sucks hardcore and in the end once you have big bolt ons with big power, a better uppipe can make a difference.
plus my gt spec is huge compared to the puny stocker and i didn't feel any negative effects of it after i put it on.

[ride5000]

nothing against you, TIC, but all i need to see is:

before and after dyno plots, same car, same day, changing ONE THING (the up pipe)

and then i'll be a lot more convinced swapping out the part is worth the $$$.

[Turninconcepts.com]

Originally Posted by VSGTS14

i have my gt spec uppipe wrapped also and boy is it NICE compared to the stock one. this thread rules, the stocker sucks hardcore and in the end once you have big bolt ons with big power, a better uppipe can make a difference.
plus my gt spec is huge compared to the puny stocker and i didn't feel any negative effects of it after i put it on.

Hell, just going with a better flowing unit on the stock setup or an off the shelf tune will help.

[JDM-STI]

Originally Posted by ride5000

nothing against you, TIC, but all i need to see is:

before and after dyno plots, same car, same day, changing ONE THING (the up pipe)

and then i'll be a lot more convinced swapping out the part is worth the $$$.

Pretty decent point here.
With that said, I have a PDE flex UP waiting to go on when I do a P&P stock header with a cross pipe.

[Turninconcepts.com]

Originally Posted by ride5000

nothing against you, TIC, but all i need to see is:

before and after dyno plots, same car, same day, changing ONE THING (the up pipe)

and then i'll be a lot more convinced swapping out the part is worth the $$$.

Originally Posted by JDM-STI

Pretty decent point here.
With that said, I have a PDE flex UP waiting to go on when I do a P&P stock header with a cross pipe.

Well, will an 06 WRX TR suffice for this example? Take a look at what Dave Buschur found:

NASIOC - View Single Post - Buschur Racing Project WRX

Oh, and as a side note - the measurement noted for stock, 1.625" ID, is at the non-crushed section.

Quoted for those who don't want to follow the link:

Originally Posted by David Buschur

So as we have already established the 2006+ WRX and STi does not have a catted uppipe.

The stock uppipe on the car only measure 1.625 ID.

The new uppipe we added today measures 2.25 ID and is lighter.

Just got the car off the dyno. As soon as I started it there was a noticable difference in the sound of the exhaust. It got quite a bit louder adding the uppipe.

I changed nothing. No tuning, no boost control, no nothing. The car does need to be retuned now as the boost went from barely hitting 18 psi occasionally to now hitting 19 psi. This is a dead sign that the factory uppipe was infact restrictive.

Low end power was effected the most with this change and brings the turbo into boost faster and added 1 psi. This part of the map is going to need to have the timing tweaked. I am going to wait for Al to show up tomorrow and have him put the finishing touches on this tune.

Here is the dyno sheet of what we are going to call our Stage 2 kit, this is an untuned sheet. I think tomorrow we will see some better gains that this. For now though the torque alone shows that even on a 2006+ or STi that an uppipe is a worthwhile modification.



David Buschur

[Turninconcepts.com]

Oh, and here's his results after tuning for the up-pipe. This chart is for two different packages they offer so don't compare the lines on this one. Compare the output to the lines in the chart above.

Here's the link to the post:
NASIOC - View Single Post - Buschur Racing Project WRX

Quoted for the lazy:

Originally Posted by David Buschur

First want to say THANKS AL. A few minor adjustments over the phone makes a big difference.

Peak power is now at 242 whp and peak torque is now 346 ft lbs. These curves are just incredibly smooth. Look at how flat the AFR's are after a quick phone call. As you can see they are quite a bit richer and with the tune being closer the boost has gone up even more.

The uppipe is definetely a worth while part to add regardless of the year/model car you have from the looks of these power gains. Even without a tune the torque was up.

This chart represents our Stage 1 (K&N drop in, 3" turboback and reflash) VS our Stage 2 (Cold air intake and uppipe).

Peak torque has increased 34 ft lbs and peak HP has increased 11 whp. Gains in the midrange of both torque and hp have increased even more with gains throughout the entire curve.



David Buschur

[JDM-STI]

I never doubted that there would be a gain. That's why I bought a new UP a while back. It's just good to see dyno numbers to back these mods up.

[ride5000]

Originally Posted by Turninconcepts.com

Well, will an 06 WRX TR suffice for this example? Take a look at what Dave Buschur found:

i also see the torque/hp lines for the two runs crossing, and though the logged max torque for the aftermarket up pipe is higher, the power for the stock pipe is higher, which indicates to me that the choice is not so blatantly obvious as some would believe.

[Turninconcepts.com]

Originally Posted by ride5000

i also see the torque/hp lines for the two runs crossing, and though the logged max torque for the aftermarket up pipe is higher, the power for the stock pipe is higher, which indicates to me that the choice is not so blatantly obvious as some would believe.

Indeed they do. Now look at the follow up chart I posted right after the first one. Look what happens when you tune for the pipe.

And don't hit me with any kind of "but I don't want to change my tune" argument. Take a look at the very first sentence in my first post that started this thread. You aren't going to start making any more real power, SAFE power, without tuning for the mods.

I think you'll pretty much find that the data posted in those two charts, with Dave's full explanation of the changes for each, the explanations of the stock up-pipe I have offered previously in this thread, and the experience of many people who have been making STis much more powerful for some time now will all attest to the fact that a decent quality up-pipe will flow better and allow for some decent gains.

[psuLemon]

Awesome thread. Subscribe.

[xlsupreme]

Originally Posted by Turninconcepts.com

Indeed they do. Now look at the follow up chart I posted right after the first one. Look what happens when you tune for the pipe.

And don't hit me with any kind of "but I don't want to change my tune" argument. Take a look at the very first sentence in my first post that started this thread. You aren't going to start making any more real power, SAFE power, without tuning for the mods.

I think you'll pretty much find that the data posted in those two charts, with Dave's full explanation of the changes for each, the explanations of the stock up-pipe I have offered previously in this thread, and the experience of many people who have been making STis much more powerful for some time now will all attest to the fact that a decent quality up-pipe will flow better and allow for some decent gains.

Thanks for looking into this. It indeed does seem worthwhile, but isn't there a limit, fuel wise, to how much power we can get? I mean, if people are maxing out their injectors, or fuel pump, on just a turbo back, it doesn't seem to me that they will realize the gains of all this exhaust work without those other upgrades (pump / injector)?

Keep in mind, this is a question, not a statement.

[fullerton]

Both plots, overlaid. A bit hard to read, but shows the gains easier.

[scott's06]

this is deffinitly one of the most informative threads i've ever read on here thanks...subscribed

[Turninconcepts.com]

Originally Posted by xlsupreme

Thanks for looking into this. It indeed does seem worthwhile, but isn't there a limit, fuel wise, to how much power we can get? I mean, if people are maxing out their injectors, or fuel pump, on just a turbo back, it doesn't seem to me that they will realize the gains of all this exhaust work without those other upgrades (pump / injector)?

Keep in mind, this is a question, not a statement.

Correct. There is a limit that the stock equipment is going to hit. The question is, at what point does a person make the decision to upgrade injectors and fuel pump. A lot of that depends on what they want out of the car, and what they are going to do with the car.

For me, I'd do UP and TBE and then tune for amount of fueling available and try and get as much low end torque as possible. But that's because of what I do with the car.

After that point is when you start thinking about turbo upgrade, injectors, pump, IC, TV deletes, and a bunch of other stuff.