[WS6FirebirdTA00]

I have a few questions. We were looking at some log data for my friends 2005 STi (LuSTi) and I just had a few questions. He doesn't have any software to tune his car with as of now so I am not sure on how the tables are setup so if some of the questions sound real dumb, thats why haha. We used ecuexplorer from TARI to log with since its free

First of all, I know nothing about the details on what these cars like for timing, ect, for WOT fueling. He was getting about 6-27* advance at WOT which for me seems very odd (of course I have only tuned LS1's so let me know if I am missing something). I would imagine the timing would be a lot lower than that, maybe in the teens for the most part and low teens for lower rpm and high load.

I dont know how the tuner is set up but the knock correction (I assume its knock retard) was showing anywhere from -2 to 10 and WOT was mostly 6-10*.

Another this is the MAF seems to be off as well. The maximum airflow was around 281 g/sec which I would think it should be much higher than that. For the power he is making if the MAF was calibrated correctly I would expect the values to be around 370 g/sec or so (again just an assumption).
The MAP readings were also going to 37 PSI. He said something about the computer not reading higher than 22 PSI so he got a manual boost control because of it. I would think if that was the case the computer would rail the MAP at the maximum value. Max boost is around 25ish PSI so this kinda makes me wonder what is going on. What is the bar rating on the stock MAP sensor.

And the IAT sensor, where exactly is that located? I would imagine it would be on the TB side of the IC but cant see a separate sensor of if its in the TB itself. It was reading pretty high (at least what I think is high) and we were unsure where it was. If there is any table specific stuff let me know some more details about that becuase I am not sure how they are set up. We were just wondering a few things and figured this was the best place to post up.

[WolfPlayer]

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

I have a few questions. We were looking at some log data for my friends 2005 STi (LuSTi) and I just had a few questions. He doesn't have any software to tune his car with as of now so I am not sure on how the tables are setup so if some of the questions sound real dumb, thats why haha. We used ecuexplorer from TARI to log with since its free

Hey WS6. Do I know you? This is Tim, Rick's friend. If Sandro went with a ProTUNE then he can upgrade to the StreetTUNER software so that he can change the tune around a little bit as needed. He would have to call Doug and ask Doug to send him is tune in StreetTUNER format.

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

First of all, I know nothing about the details on what these cars like for timing, ect, for WOT fueling. He was getting about 6-27* advance at WOT which for me seems very odd (of course I have only tuned LS1's so let me know if I am missing something). I would imagine the timing would be a lot lower than that, maybe in the teens for the most part and low teens for lower rpm and high load.

Sandro has Meth injection. With Meth injection you can really bump the timing back up and get lots of power. A tuned VF39 setup (20psi peak to 16psi at redline) will run about 15 degrees on spoolup and then about 30 degrees at redline (on the stock top mount). Sandro has a front mount and meth injection. Timing can seriously be pumped up with those 2 items.

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

I dont know how the tuner is set up but the knock correction (I assume its knock retard) was showing anywhere from -2 to 10 and WOT was mostly 6-10*.

Knock correction is nothing like domestic knock correction. Throw away everything you know about knock correction. In the scooby world, knock correction is a positive value that adds timing on top of the base timing. Unfortunately, somehow the title 'knock correction' stuck with this type of timing adder. It really is called dynamic advance. It is timing that is applied to the base timing in order to achieve the overall timing. Thus, if you saw 8 degrees of knock correction and a total timing value of 24, then this would mean that the base timing was 16 degrees and the ECU added 8 degrees on top of that to achieve 24 degrees. Also keep in mind that these cars are 8.5:1 compression. That is a big difference as compared to the 10:1+ on the F-Bodies running bolt-on superchargers.

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

Another this is the MAF seems to be off as well. The maximum airflow was around 281 g/sec which I would think it should be much higher than that. For the power he is making if the MAF was calibrated correctly I would expect the values to be around 370 g/sec or so (again just an assumption).

Yea, something is amiss. It's definitely pulling more than that. Heck, my stock turbo STI can hit 300g/s. Sandro's car will be hitting much closer to 375g/s. I think he is running the Perrin big MAF. Report back with the actual MAF voltage.

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

The MAP readings were also going to 37 PSI. He said something about the computer not reading higher than 22 PSI so he got a manual boost control because of it. I would think if that was the case the computer would rail the MAP at the maximum value. Max boost is around 25ish PSI so this kinda makes me wonder what is going on. What is the bar rating on the stock MAP sensor.

The bar rating on the stock MAP sensor is somewhere between 2 and 3 bar. It's higher than 2 bar (AFAIK) but it isn't a 3-bar sensor. Everything seems fine with the data you reported. I don't know the exact limit ... it might be 22 ... but it might be 23 also. Sounds to me like you did rail the map sensor if you were hitting 25psi 25 psi would yield an absolute pressure of 39.7 ... ~40psi (25psi + 14.7 [barometric pressure]). You only saw 37psi.

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

And the IAT sensor, where exactly is that located? I would imagine it would be on the TB side of the IC but cant see a separate sensor of if its in the TB itself. It was reading pretty high (at least what I think is high) and we were unsure where it was.

IAT is in the MAF. Define reading high. Sandro has a shortram that sits in the engine bay. The IAT will read seriously high in any type of stop and go traffic. This is why I hate shortrams. Furthermore, at @ 122d F the ECU will start pulling timing due to high intake temps.

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

If there is any table specific stuff let me know some more details about that becuase I am not sure how they are set up. We were just wondering a few things and figured this was the best place to post up.

Ask specific questions. I could write a book on this stuff ... but there is no way I am going to do it here.

Also - post moved because it is not a StreetTUNER post.

t

[daemon]

Oh, darn you WolfPlayer! I should have waited a few more minutes.

[WS6FirebirdTA00]

OK cool man. Yeah I figured he could run higher timing with the lower compression I just wasnt thinking about the rest of the stuff that he had on there

The IAT temps were around 160*F. Wouldn't the computer need to know the IAT as it enters the TB and not the whole system? I would think that would give more accurate readings.

I didn't know that was the way it was reporting the MAP value, so now I see why. I was wondering what was going on with that haha. So how do you know when you get knock? Does the correction go to (-) values? Or is it like....the comptuer wants to add 20 deg, but needs to pull 5 deg for KR so the correction will only be 15*?

Thanks for moving this, we weren't really sure where to put it haha. He has been thinking about the tuning software after seeing the stuff that I do. It is fun plus you can set the car up how you want it and based on your driving style, that is the fun part.

Sandro is going to get the MAF voltage on the way back to his place. Why are you interested in this? Just to see if the voltage is getting high? I am not sure how this is setup but in my computer you have a fixed axis of MAF Hz and you adjust the airflow value for a given frequency so it can report correct airflow. I would imagine if the voltage is what is "expected" then there is a table that is not correct?

Is there any demo software or anything for the street tuner? I would like to check out some of the maps and see how it is all setup and if it is similar to the stuff I use.

[WS6FirebirdTA00]

He doesnt have MAF voltage as an option in the scanner. He was also thinking the car pulled timing because he didnt think it felt as strong (which may have been from high IAT readings). I really think that MAF needs to be moved to the TB side of the piping, would that work out better? With the IAT reading before the IC that would give the computer screwy readings. Of course not too sure on how the fueling is setup either so...lol

[Peleg]

What kind of modifications is he running?

Does he have an intake?

[WS6FirebirdTA00]

Originally Posted by Peleg

What kind of modifications is he running?

Does he have an intake?

Lets see...I am sure he can answer better but I will go over a basic run through

larger turbo@28# (wanna say like a 65#/min wheel?)
IC
meth
larger diameter MAF
some foam filter with red bellows for the air intake (got me on what its called lol)
turbo back exhaust (sure its not relevant but its a mod)
tune

Like I said, wait for him if you REALLY want to know what stuff is haha

This turbo stuff is not my area so to speak, I understand it but dont know a majority of the technical parts stuff.

[Peleg]

Can you post the boost value table from the TARI? At least that will give us an idea what his engine/turbo is doing....

[WS6FirebirdTA00]

I will have him post up when he gets online, he is studying for a calc final right now.

[daemon]

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

He doesnt have MAF voltage as an option in the scanner. He was also thinking the car pulled timing because he didnt think it felt as strong (which may have been from high IAT readings). I really think that MAF needs to be moved to the TB side of the piping, would that work out better? With the IAT reading before the IC that would give the computer screwy readings. Of course not too sure on how the fueling is setup either so...lol

If you search for blow-through MAF, you'll see some folks playing with a post-IC MAF for the reasons you state. The issues, I believe, are increased temps hitting the MAF and the fact that oil from the PCV system is dumped into the intake and over time will coat the MAF causing skewed readings.

The reason logging the MAF voltage is useful is because you can see how close you are to max (5V) and also because the gram/sec reported in the logger is really a result of the MAF voltage running through the intake calibration table. MAF voltage is always correct. The grams/sec is only correct if the intake calibration table is correct for the given intake.

[luSTI]

Well I am finally done studying for now (f-ing calc 2 final) so lets see what I can answer. My mods jeus, lets see: APS 3" turbo back exhaust, Helix 860cc injectors, Walboro fuel pump, Forced Performance Red turbo, Turbo XS front mount intercooler, SMC methanol injection kit, ACT street clutch, 1 step colder plugs, Perrin big MAF intake, and a custom tune from Doug at Topspeed.

As Mike said the boost values are maxing out the MAP sensor. I am running ~24psi on the street so that would make sense why it is. I will see if I can find a way to post up the boost readings.

[WolfPlayer]

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

The IAT temps were around 160*F. Wouldn't the computer need to know the IAT as it enters the TB and not the whole system? I would think that would give more accurate readings.

Accurate is relative. Accurate in terms of the tune or accurate in terms of the real temperature of the air - lol. Subaru programmed the stock ECU based off of the IAT pre-turbo, not post turbo. This isn't really new. The stock GM TPI setup had a MAT located in the plenum where it would heat soak and read totally inaccurate. However, the $8D (AUJP BCC) was setup for this and expected it. Same here with the scooby ECU.

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

I didn't know that was the way it was reporting the MAP value, so now I see why. I was wondering what was going on with that haha. So how do you know when you get knock? Does the correction go to (-) values? Or is it like....the comptuer wants to add 20 deg, but needs to pull 5 deg for KR so the correction will only be 15*?

The scooby ECU is a masterpiece for knock detection. My main hangup when I started tuning the scoobys (I've been tuning GM F-bodies for years), was that I didn't see a value for knock retard in the SSM (SSM ~ ALDL). If Dynamic Advance A is set to 8 degrees for a given load and RPM (there are 3 dynamic advance tables: A, B, and C), and you only see the ECU adding 6 degrees, then that means knock was detected for that load/RPM cell. Simple as that. The trick here is for Sandro to know what his Dynamic Advance A map looks like.

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

Thanks for moving this, we weren't really sure where to put it haha. He has been thinking about the tuning software after seeing the stuff that I do. It is fun plus you can set the car up how you want it and based on your driving style, that is the fun part.

Word. Good luck with the learning curve here - trust me, there is a lot of stuff that you won't know. Your best bet is to really almost start from scratch in terms of your thinking. Lots of cool stuff in the scoobies such as the ability to change the row and header values

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

Sandro is going to get the MAF voltage on the way back to his place. Why are you interested in this? Just to see if the voltage is getting high? I am not sure how this is setup but in my computer you have a fixed axis of MAF Hz and you adjust the airflow value for a given frequency so it can report correct airflow. I would imagine if the voltage is what is "expected" then there is a table that is not correct?

daemon already answered this. However, I am also interested in this due to having noticed discrepencies in TARI regarding MAF airflow. I was working on a friend's naturally aspirated 130whp RS (yea, just 130) and it was reporting 280g/s. Now I know that car doesn't pull in that much air. The MAF voltage looked good though.

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

Is there any demo software or anything for the street tuner? I would like to check out some of the maps and see how it is all setup and if it is similar to the stuff I use.

No demo software for StreetTUNER. However, you could gallop on over to openecu.org and check out the DIY subaru solution. It now supports the DBW vehicles and there is a relatively good start on a definition file for one of the '04 cals.

t

[luSTI]

Thanks Tim for all the quick responses. Btw that is my friend Mike who has a WS6 who is f*cking BRILLIANT with tuning LS1's. He is helping me learn how to interpret and tune my own car. I went over to his house as soon as I got the ecuexplorer to work to see what he thought of it and what he had to say about the logs. Thats why he was posting up my stuff earlier.

[WolfPlayer]

Originally Posted by luSTI

Thanks Tim for all the quick responses. Btw that is my friend Mike who has a WS6 who is f*cking BRILLIANT with tuning LS1's. He is helping me learn how to interpret and tune my own car.

DEFINITELY no offense to Mike whatsoever. I'm sure he knows his stuff. However, 'BRILLIANT with tuning LS1's' is cool, but it doesn't mean he could jump in and start tuning Scoobies right off the bat. Trust me, I know. I've tuned tons of F-Bodies ... been doing it for well over 5 years. There's a learning curve here. At least you have me throwing some bones your way. When I got into the scoob stuff there wasn't many people willing to help Thank goodness the community is opening up some more.

Don't hesitate to ask questions. Assuming something with regard to the scoob stuff based on some domestic stuff could be a fatal mistake.

t

[Siegel Racing]

Wolf, I always wondered what your background was. I know you told me a while back, but it's cool to see again.

The grams/sec look WAY off because of the BigMaf. There are many ways to make the bigmaf work. One of the more popular ways is to just change the header values on the fuel and timing tables so that even though 76mm ID worth of air is getting in the Intake calibration isn't far from the 65mm ID (stock) settings.

This is of course not "engineering correct" but it works and is used a LOT.

You obviously understand this part, but for those reading my customer "Siegel Lesson" on MAF goes like this:

The air comes in across the MAF, which outputs a voltage.

There is an "Intake Calibration" table that says X volts = Y grams per second of air.

(Stock this maxes near 300 grams/sec, but you can obviously run a LOT more. Some ECU's will not show over 300 g/s.)

The car calculates Engine Load of grams/second/revolution which is used in the header axis of the fueling and timing tables. This normally maxes between 3 and 4.

The car uses this table of RPM vs Engine Load (g/s/r) and the "Target AFR" value.

The "Injector Size" and "Latency" variables also come into play.

The car says "I have X grams of air, and my target AFR is Y, my injectors are Z big so I have to spray them at W duty cycle."

End- SL Maf lesson.

A note on the Intake Air Temp thing.

Wolf is of course exactly right that stock the car runs "full" (unaffected) timing until 122 degrees F, then Ramps to near minus 8 (EIGHT!) degrees at 140 F.

*** Protuner has access to this table, and particularly with Meth and SRI's many tuners mess with these values...

He is also correct that you need to know what your DAM (dynamic advance multiplier or Knock Corection) is SUPPOSED to be. If it's running any less the car is pulling timing for ping...

That's probably enough for now

SS