[Hinoki]

Just in case there's any ambiguity at all.. I absolutely detest Cobb Access Ports. I hate them with a passion

There's a feature we discovered in the ECU recently. There's about 2 Megabytes of unused space tucked aside. And it turns out we also discovered a use for it.

See, if you use OpenECU, you can set the ECU to actually data-log into that space. So, without anything sticking into the car, you can have it pull information and store it (it's in xml format) from a track run.. or from daily driving.. and since it's in XML, it hardly takes any space at all.

Here's reason #1 I hate Cobb AP's. When you marry a Cobb to an ECU, it permanently writes into the ECU, and that disables access to the 2mb buffer space. You can't get it back, at all, EVER. Even if you un-marry the AP from the ECU.. you still CANNOT write to that space.

Dealerships are catching on to the fact that if -THEY- try and set the ECU to log to that space.. and then run the car.. and THEN discover the space is empty, that the ECU has been married to an AP and thus, has been modified, and THUS can be denied warranty.

Efforts are underway to see about over-writing the ENTIRE ecu and clearing out the kruft that Cobb left behind, but it's entailing reverse-engineering the entire ECU and the Cobb AP itself.. and that's not easy to do.

No, I'm not on that team.. it was just discovered while my ECU was being re-flashed.

I'll keep folks updated as I learn more.

-Hinoki

[FORCFED]

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

[Burton182Boards]

uh-oh

[SRH_STi]

meh... if you run an accessport and have engine problems, you SHOULD be denied warranty service.

[Hinoki]

Originally Posted by SRH_STi

meh... if you run an accessport and have engine problems, you SHOULD be denied warranty service.

Ah, but Cobb's advertisement on their web page even specifies: 'Can be returned to stock for trips to the dealership'.

[Mack]

I'd like to see someone corroborate this story.
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EDIT: To get this towards the front of the thread, here is COBB's Response:

Originally Posted by COBB Tuning

Hinoki,

We are sorry that you feel that way about the AccessPORT. We are certainly interested in getting a better understanding of your findings so that we can make any improvements necessary to the way the AccessPORT interacts with Subaru ECUs. We would never intentionally offer a product that deliberately disables what could potentially prove to be a very beneficial feature hidden within the factory ECU.

We have scanned several of the OpenECU related forums but have not yet found anything related to this topic. Would you help point us in the right direction so that we and the entire community can better understand what is going on? We are very interested in testing this. We also own the factory Subaru scan tools (SSM-II and SSM-III), so if you know how a technician is doing this check, sharing that information can be of help as well.

With regards to how we write to the ECU, in order to make a change to the data the ECU uses to run the engine, one must go through a very specific process as outlined by the chip manufacturer. The data is written to a section of memory called the ROM and you can think of it with the same concept as a hard drive in your computer. For example. you can save a file on your hard drive and when you turn off your computer, that file is still there when you turn it back on. If you want to change the file's contents, you can do so and then save it to the hard drive to retain that information. This is the same process (in concept) when reflashing an ECU.

One thing we do that may be causing confusion in this particular instance is that we do make the ECU "secure" when the AccessPORT is installed. This means OpenECU, EcuTek, or the Subaru factory tools cannot read or overwrite the (ROM) data on the ECU. This may lead to the belief that the AP permanently writes the ECU but in fact if you uninstall the AccessPORT, that added security is removed and you can use any other available tool to read and write the ECU.

On the subject of checksums, we retain the original function and intent of the checksum when reflashing the ECU. When the ECU starts (key on, prior to engine start), it will do a sanity check to validate the data stored on the ROM (its hard drive) is valid. It does this by reading the data stored on the ROM and then comparing it to the checksum values. If they don't match, it knows there is a problem that could potentially be very serious so it does not allow the engine to operate. This self check is common and necessary due to the fact that memory can corrupt over time or due to outside influences. We recalculate the checksum values based on the new data that has been saved to the ROM, so when the ECU goes through its key on sanity check, a true validation of data occurs. The practice of simply disabling the checksum functionality in order to keep a stock "checksum value", even when other data has changed from stock, is something we consider less than ideal. As an extreme example, consider if data in the DBW tables became corrupt causing sudden acceleration (or engine braking) unexpectedly, potentially causing a loss of control. We follow the OEM methods and update the checksums when the ECU data changes so this important safety functionality remains intact.

When the AccessPORT is uninstalled, it reverts back to the original ROM data and checksums. Since the ROM is stock, the checksums have to be stock in order for the engine to operate. If uninstallation of the AccessPORT did not restore original ROM data and original checksums, the engine would not operate after uninstalling the AccessPORT due to a checksum validation failure.

Regarding a flash counter in the ECU, there is a counter implemented only after the ECU is flashed using the Subaru Flash tool. The flash tool effectively establishes a counter in data that originally is 0000 FFFF on the ROM. In order to keep the checksums from being effected, the Subaru Flash tool will increment the flash count as 0001 FFFE. When the AccessPORT is installed over a Subaru Flash tool reflash, this counter is saved when the ROM is downloaded to the AccessPORT. When the AccessPORT is uninstalled, the Subaru Flash Tool counter is re-established on the ECU, just as it was prior to installing the AccessPORT.

It is very easy to test whether the AccessPORT does return the ECU to 100% of its original contdition using the OpenECU tools. Prior to installing the AccessPORT, use the OpenECU tools to read the ROM and save it. Then install the AccessPORT and uninstall it. Once uninstalled, use the OpenECU tools to read the ROM and save this file as well. Compare the two ROM binary files in a hex editor and do a quick difference check. If the files are 100% the same, there is nothing residual left on the ECU as a "marker". The Checksums are in the ROM, so this comparison check will also validate that the checksums are returned to their original condition as well.

We perform this type of check many, many times throughout the process of developing an AccessPORT for an application. If anyone performs this check and does encounter differences in the original ROM file and the ROM file post AccessPORT uninstall, please email the ROM files to us at tech@cobbtuning.com, as we would be very interested in reviewing them.

Regards,

Gary Sheehan
COBB Tuning

Personally, I think that the OP was out to tarnish COBB's reputation by making up fake accusations. Many others agree.

[bluedemon_II]

Originally Posted by fullerton

I'd like to see someone corroborate this story.

Some one from the romraider team.

It is wierd that you bring up that the stock ecu can log on its self since this is the first time I heard of this.

Meh, new crap keeps coming up every day. If I want to log something I will just bring my laptop with me for convenience and either way you will need the pc to see the log file so I dont see it as a big deal.

Just my .02c

[Hinoki]

Originally Posted by fullerton

I'd like to see someone corroborate this story.

Well,the easiest way to corroborate it would be to take an ECU that had been used with a Cobb AP. Use OpenECU to set it to log to that segment of memory. Roll around for a few minutes. Try to read that memory. If it's empty.. viola, there you go.

That's how we figured out my ECU had been Cobb-bed by a previous owner. We'd also verified it on a NON-Cobb Subie of the same year.. it COULD write.

And then we de-Cobbed the Saabaru... and it couldn't write to the memory.

But yes, indeed.. I strongly recommend and indeed ask for independant investigation.

[Hinoki]

Originally Posted by bluedemon_II

Some one from the romraider team.

It is wierd that you bring up that the stock ecu can log on its self since this is the first time I heard of this.

Meh, new crap keeps coming up every day. If I want to log something I will just bring my laptop with me for convenience and either way you will need the pc to see the log file so I dont see it as a big deal.

Just my .02c

Oh, agreed. Logging on the laptop is no great shakes. The annoying/worrisome part of it all is that it can be used as a mode of detection, when their advertising clearly specified that it can't be detected.

As I see it, we buy the ticket and we ride the ride. But I do call shennanigans on Cobb for saying they're not detectable when they (allegedly) are. I say allegedly, pending corroberation.

-Hinoki

[bluedemon_II]

Originally Posted by Hinoki

Oh, agreed. Logging on the laptop is no great shakes. The annoying/worrisome part of it all is that it can be used as a mode of detection, when their advertising clearly specified that it can't be detected.

As I see it, we buy the ticket and we ride the ride. But I do call shennanigans on Cobb for saying they're not detectable when they (allegedly) are. I say allegedly, pending corroberation.

-Hinoki

I bet you that most dealers don't know about that empty segment Some dealers are just lol when you go and ask technical stuff. Still if what you are saying is true, then that be an issue with ppl attempting to retain a warranty with a modified ecu etc.