Determining APS Intake safety

Hirogen · 03-08-2008, 12:41 AM

I should have some spare time this weekend and it has been killing me all winter. I got my APS 65mm intake and put it on for 3 days when I first had it. I did not notice any negative behavior from the car. In fact, my accessport displayed the dyn advance at 5 instead of 4 with the stock box.

For fear of hurting my brand new car that I worked so hard for I decided to take it off so I can sleep at night until my protune. Basically the protune is still months away atleast.

I am aware most everyone runs the 65mm with no probs, I am just concerned as I am an 07. Currently running OTS stg2.

I'm set up with enginuity and would like to go out and datalog BEFORE with the stock box and do a few pulls, install the aps then the day after do a few pulls with the intake on. Was planning on doing 4th gear from 2.5k up. I have datalogged before but not so sure on what to watch with the intake and how to determine what to compare between the two.

Having said that, would anybody mind chiming in with the exact parameters I will want to watch to determine if the intake is causing any problems.

Wolf, your wisdom would be appreciated if your around!

Also feel free to chime in if your on an 07 running this intake and what your experiences are.

Kickstand · 03-08-2008, 03:26 AM

I have the Cobb DP and exhaust as well as the APS intake. I had it on the car for a few weeks before i got it tuned. It didn't and probably won't hurt anything, but it is definitely much better once you get a tune.

WolfPlayer · 03-08-2008, 10:36 AM

Off the top of my head .... ... .. . Generally speaking, you want to take a look at boost, fuel, and timing. So, with that said, you definitely want boost, A/F Learned, AFR, Knock Advance, Feedback Correction, and Ignition Timing. AFR won't be accurate and it will probably just bottom out. However, for comparison purposes it can be helpful.

I would also log RPM, MAF g/s (not airflow), and IAT. Depending on resolution, you can add more items to the datastream. However, I like to keep the number of items as small as possible to have the most data points. One of the next things that I would add would by the Turbo Dynamics values. If you already know that your IDC is ok then I wouldn't worry about it (JMHO). As long as the coolant temps are the same between runs then I wouldn't worry about that either.

Most people log the Dynamic Advance Multiplier. However, I just find that it takes up space in the datastream. Check it before you do your run to ensure that it is 1.0 and then after your run to ensure that it is 1.0.

t

nhat · 03-08-2008, 03:17 PM

my aps cai works great. i was running pig rich after installing without any tuning. i scaled the maf and i'm still running rich, but i've had no problems with it since i installed it 4 months ago.

also, log the maf voltage.

Hirogen · 03-09-2008, 08:57 PM

Ok I did 3 pulls with the stock box last night, temps were 34ish last night and around 31ish tonight.

Last night, I had myself and 2 passengers (they HAD to go). Tonight was myself and 1 friend with the new intake. Only a difference of about 120 pounds.

After the intake was installed I drove around about 30 miles. The only thing I want to mention is I only got it above 5k rpm's once after the ecu was reset with the new intake. Take that into consideration, I'm not sure how much learning it needs to do yet up top. I can do a few more logs in a few days if they look safe to drive with for a bit.

Without further ado, and thanks again if your taking the time to analyze

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/3/...2007%20STi.zip

Hirogen · 03-10-2008, 10:06 PM

Bump, After analyzing it looks to me like the timing is similar and the knock looks alright. One friends opinion was it is maybe dangerous having the fuel pump at 100% and the injectors right there too.

The only problem with the fuel is, it looks to me like the situation was similar with both the box and intake.

Did cobb just go over the top making the 07 maps rich across the board? Anybody feel I should be concerned?

xrayvsn · 03-12-2008, 07:15 PM

I log the following:

-engine speed (rpm)
-throttle position (%) - this is important if you want to use Airboy's Excel macro.
-Ignition timing
-Knock Correction
-Primary Wastegate duty cycle
-Manifold pressure (corrected) - this parameter will overcome the stock ECU 18.4 psi limit on its logged manifold relative pressure. This will be important to those seeing more boost. You can log Manifold relative pressure if your boost doesn't exceed 18.4 psi.
-engine load (g/rev)
-Mass Air flow (g/sec)
-Mass Air flow voltage
-Feedback knock correction
-Fine learning knock correction
-Intake Air temp (for comparison between runs)

You have other parameters logged that will reduce the sampling frequency, like boost error, fuel pump % (which you will notice will go to 100% when you are WOT), roughness, target boost (this can be derived from examining the ROM), and knock signal. The latter is only useful if a knock event happens to occur right at the time you sample. The FBKC and FLKC are more useful in determining if there was a knock event.

The difference in dynamic advance on your accessport display don't necessarily mean that your ECU is happier with the APS than the stock airbox since you may have been in a different load cell at the time you looked at your AP. The most accurate way to check is by way of datalogging as you have done.

On your first pull with the APS you get a touch of FBKC around 3600, and some learned KC at tip in. Do you have access to an wideband that you can clamp on to your exhaust? Those aren't very accurate at idle, but from the logs I have done with Airboy and his LC-1, I think they are good at WOT when there is less turbulence at the tip.

***Szumita*** · 03-12-2008, 07:17 PM

i love my aps 65. no issues at all.

only time was when we had a rainstorm, i forgot to put my fog cover back on instead of the bezel with hole. it got a little wet, and was jumpy, but was fine when dried off.

Hirogen · 03-13-2008, 08:54 AM

Thanks for the extensive post xray, tonight I'll try and modify my parameters and make another log or 2.

Do any of you feel as those logs are dangerous to run? I've had the intake on a few days now. According to the logs my injectors are running a bit more and the maf is getting about 30 g/s of air more. Let me know if anyone sees anything they are concerned over, I worked real hard for this car not trying to blow it up with 9k miles on it.

I do not have access to a wideband right now BUT I was considering maybe getting the db gauge from innovate, would match my color scheme and doesnt look bad for $230. I guess I could always get the kit without the gauge for 80ish I think it was. If I would pick up a wideband would that give us a much better idea of how safe it is?

WESTI · 03-14-2008, 08:31 AM

bump any update on this?

xrayvsn · 03-16-2008, 07:45 AM

I asked Airboy, our local RomRaider/Enginuity guru to take a look at your logs. His reply to me as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airboy

Hi xray

I agree, the logs look fine in terms of knock activity. The higher MAF(g/s) could be real or it could be the intake skewing things a little (or combination of both). Can't really say without WBO2 data.

His fuel trims on the APS intake is trending toward enrichment so depending on where it settles he may run out of injectors when it is cold out. Don't know how much truth there is about injector damage from >100% IDC.

The intake (any intake) should really be tuned for even though it is "the same size". The large positive fuel trim numbers at low air flow is a good indication of that.

I'd leave it off until he gets it tuned.

I know there are people who run over 100% IDC at sea level, but I personally would want them lower. With that said, you might consider getting injectors at the time of your protune.

nhat · 03-16-2008, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrayvsn

I know there are people who run over 100% IDC at sea level, but I personally would want them lower. With that said, you might consider getting injectors at the time of your protune.

i was running up to 109% IDCs after installing my aps cai. with minor maf calibration, my IDCs dropped to 104%. i think with further maf calibration, my IDCs will drop below 100%. this is on stock injectors.

screwfoot · 03-16-2008, 03:37 PM

I've have not had a problem yet with the aps intake 65mm combined with stageII 91oct and K'sai 3" turbo back exhaust pulling all the way through the gears to 7200rpm's;the shift from 4th to 5th at full load is quite satisfiying,then continuing to 7200 into 6th gear ,be extra careful by now your at speed.There is no protune in my area.would anyone know of better map for my situation

Peleg · 03-16-2008, 06:20 PM

Just install it before you get tuned.

I'm running mine with a custom tune and I love it.

The sound is like.....world war III is about to start......when I shift next to people, they always turn their head because of the sound = pricele$$.

Hirogen · 03-17-2008, 12:15 AM

Sorry WESTI, I don't really have an update. When Cobb released the 1.0.4 software 2 days ago I had 2 hours to spare so I decided to just revert back AGAIN to the stock box until I set my tune date. I'm too paranoid about it and not enjoying my car.

Xray's friend seems to think the IDC's could be too high and it is still cold here at night in PA. It does sound pretty amazing though. I ended up driving by my ex's house letting it learn the intake. My friend decided to open the door to yell something obnoxious when I drove by her house but instead I heard an incredible sneeze with the passenger door open. Hopefully she heard it too =P

03-08-2008, 12:41 AM	#1
Hirogen Junior STI Driver Car: UGM 07 STi Fav Mod: Cobb DP and Stg2 Posts: 158 Join Date: Jan 2007 Trader Rating: (0)	Determining APS Intake safety I should have some spare time this weekend and it has been killing me all winter. I got my APS 65mm intake and put it on for 3 days when I first had it. I did not notice any negative behavior from the car. In fact, my accessport displayed the dyn advance at 5 instead of 4 with the stock box. For fear of hurting my brand new car that I worked so hard for I decided to take it off so I can sleep at night until my protune. Basically the protune is still months away atleast. I am aware most everyone runs the 65mm with no probs, I am just concerned as I am an 07. Currently running OTS stg2. I'm set up with enginuity and would like to go out and datalog BEFORE with the stock box and do a few pulls, install the aps then the day after do a few pulls with the intake on. Was planning on doing 4th gear from 2.5k up. I have datalogged before but not so sure on what to watch with the intake and how to determine what to compare between the two. Having said that, would anybody mind chiming in with the exact parameters I will want to watch to determine if the intake is causing any problems. Wolf, your wisdom would be appreciated if your around! Also feel free to chime in if your on an 07 running this intake and what your experiences are. This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad.

03-08-2008, 03:26 AM	#2
Kickstand Professional STI Racer Car: '07 SWP STi Fav Mod: NEW BRAKES!!! Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 824 Join Date: Feb 2007 Trader Rating: (3)	Re: Determining APS Intake safety I have the Cobb DP and exhaust as well as the APS intake. I had it on the car for a few weeks before i got it tuned. It didn't and probably won't hurt anything, but it is definitely much better once you get a tune.

03-08-2008, 10:36 AM	#3
WolfPlayer Moderator & ECU Tech Car: 05 CGM STI Fav Mod: mo boostaz Location: Fredneck, MD Posts: 3,704 Join Date: Jun 2004 Trader Rating: (6)	Re: Determining APS Intake safety Off the top of my head .... ... .. . Generally speaking, you want to take a look at boost, fuel, and timing. So, with that said, you definitely want boost, A/F Learned, AFR, Knock Advance, Feedback Correction, and Ignition Timing. AFR won't be accurate and it will probably just bottom out. However, for comparison purposes it can be helpful. I would also log RPM, MAF g/s (not airflow), and IAT. Depending on resolution, you can add more items to the datastream. However, I like to keep the number of items as small as possible to have the most data points. One of the next things that I would add would by the Turbo Dynamics values. If you already know that your IDC is ok then I wouldn't worry about it (JMHO). As long as the coolant temps are the same between runs then I wouldn't worry about that either. Most people log the Dynamic Advance Multiplier. However, I just find that it takes up space in the datastream. Check it before you do your run to ensure that it is 1.0 and then after your run to ensure that it is 1.0. t

03-08-2008, 03:17 PM	#4
nhat Professional STI Driver Car: 04 sti Fav Mod: enginuity tuned Location: NoVA Posts: 417 Join Date: Aug 2007 Trader Rating: (0)	Re: Determining APS Intake safety my aps cai works great. i was running pig rich after installing without any tuning. i scaled the maf and i'm still running rich, but i've had no problems with it since i installed it 4 months ago. also, log the maf voltage.

03-09-2008, 08:57 PM	#5
Hirogen Junior STI Driver Car: UGM 07 STi Fav Mod: Cobb DP and Stg2 Posts: 158 Join Date: Jan 2007 Trader Rating: (0)	Re: Determining APS Intake safety Ok I did 3 pulls with the stock box last night, temps were 34ish last night and around 31ish tonight. Last night, I had myself and 2 passengers (they HAD to go). Tonight was myself and 1 friend with the new intake. Only a difference of about 120 pounds. After the intake was installed I drove around about 30 miles. The only thing I want to mention is I only got it above 5k rpm's once after the ecu was reset with the new intake. Take that into consideration, I'm not sure how much learning it needs to do yet up top. I can do a few more logs in a few days if they look safe to drive with for a bit. Without further ado, and thanks again if your taking the time to analyze http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/3/...2007%20STi.zip

03-10-2008, 10:06 PM	#6
Hirogen Junior STI Driver Car: UGM 07 STi Fav Mod: Cobb DP and Stg2 Posts: 158 Join Date: Jan 2007 Trader Rating: (0)	Re: Determining APS Intake safety Bump, After analyzing it looks to me like the timing is similar and the knock looks alright. One friends opinion was it is maybe dangerous having the fuel pump at 100% and the injectors right there too. The only problem with the fuel is, it looks to me like the situation was similar with both the box and intake. Did cobb just go over the top making the 07 maps rich across the board? Anybody feel I should be concerned?

03-12-2008, 07:15 PM	#7
xrayvsn Junior STI Driver Car: WRB 06 STI Fav Mod: Prodrive RB320 Suspension Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 55 Join Date: Apr 2006 Trader Rating: (0)	Re: Determining APS Intake safety I log the following: -engine speed (rpm) -throttle position (%) - this is important if you want to use Airboy's Excel macro. -Ignition timing -Knock Correction -Primary Wastegate duty cycle -Manifold pressure (corrected) - this parameter will overcome the stock ECU 18.4 psi limit on its logged manifold relative pressure. This will be important to those seeing more boost. You can log Manifold relative pressure if your boost doesn't exceed 18.4 psi. -engine load (g/rev) -Mass Air flow (g/sec) -Mass Air flow voltage -Feedback knock correction -Fine learning knock correction -Intake Air temp (for comparison between runs) You have other parameters logged that will reduce the sampling frequency, like boost error, fuel pump % (which you will notice will go to 100% when you are WOT), roughness, target boost (this can be derived from examining the ROM), and knock signal. The latter is only useful if a knock event happens to occur right at the time you sample. The FBKC and FLKC are more useful in determining if there was a knock event. The difference in dynamic advance on your accessport display don't necessarily mean that your ECU is happier with the APS than the stock airbox since you may have been in a different load cell at the time you looked at your AP. The most accurate way to check is by way of datalogging as you have done. On your first pull with the APS you get a touch of FBKC around 3600, and some learned KC at tip in. Do you have access to an wideband that you can clamp on to your exhaust? Those aren't very accurate at idle, but from the logs I have done with Airboy and his LC-1, I think they are good at WOT when there is less turbulence at the tip.

03-12-2008, 07:17 PM	#8
*Szumita* i eat cones Car: 08.5 GTI MKv Fav Mod: 18x8 Location: ma & ri Posts: 6,749 Join Date: Oct 2006 Trader Rating: (21)	Re: Determining APS Intake safety i love my aps 65. no issues at all. only time was when we had a rainstorm, i forgot to put my fog cover back on instead of the bezel with hole. it got a little wet, and was jumpy, but was fine when dried off.

03-13-2008, 08:54 AM	#9
Hirogen Junior STI Driver Car: UGM 07 STi Fav Mod: Cobb DP and Stg2 Posts: 158 Join Date: Jan 2007 Trader Rating: (0)	Re: Determining APS Intake safety Thanks for the extensive post xray, tonight I'll try and modify my parameters and make another log or 2. Do any of you feel as those logs are dangerous to run? I've had the intake on a few days now. According to the logs my injectors are running a bit more and the maf is getting about 30 g/s of air more. Let me know if anyone sees anything they are concerned over, I worked real hard for this car not trying to blow it up with 9k miles on it. I do not have access to a wideband right now BUT I was considering maybe getting the db gauge from innovate, would match my color scheme and doesnt look bad for $230. I guess I could always get the kit without the gauge for 80ish I think it was. If I would pick up a wideband would that give us a much better idea of how safe it is?

03-14-2008, 08:31 AM	#10
WESTI I'm Jim Halpert Car: 06 WRB STI Fav Mod: Ricer Flyby Location: Irvine, Ca Posts: 6,381 Join Date: Apr 2006 Trader Rating: (9)	Re: Determining APS Intake safety bump any update on this?

03-16-2008, 03:37 PM	#13
screwfoot Amateur STI Driver Car: 07 pearl white sti Fav Mod: Coming Soon Posts: 15 Join Date: Jan 2008 Trader Rating: (0)	Re: Determining APS Intake safety I've have not had a problem yet with the aps intake 65mm combined with stageII 91oct and K'sai 3" turbo back exhaust pulling all the way through the gears to 7200rpm's;the shift from 4th to 5th at full load is quite satisfiying,then continuing to 7200 into 6th gear ,be extra careful by now your at speed.There is no protune in my area.would anyone know of better map for my situation

03-16-2008, 06:20 PM	#14
Peleg STI Guru Car: 04 Subaru WRX STi Fav Mod: Whooshing sounds Location: Death Valley Posts: 5,934 Join Date: Nov 2003 Trader Rating: (11)	Re: Determining APS Intake safety Just install it before you get tuned. I'm running mine with a custom tune and I love it. The sound is like.....world war III is about to start......when I shift next to people, they always turn their head because of the sound = pricele$$.

03-17-2008, 12:15 AM	#15
Hirogen Junior STI Driver Car: UGM 07 STi Fav Mod: Cobb DP and Stg2 Posts: 158 Join Date: Jan 2007 Trader Rating: (0)	Re: Determining APS Intake safety Sorry WESTI, I don't really have an update. When Cobb released the 1.0.4 software 2 days ago I had 2 hours to spare so I decided to just revert back AGAIN to the stock box until I set my tune date. I'm too paranoid about it and not enjoying my car. Xray's friend seems to think the IDC's could be too high and it is still cold here at night in PA. It does sound pretty amazing though. I ended up driving by my ex's house letting it learn the intake. My friend decided to open the door to yell something obnoxious when I drove by her house but instead I heard an incredible sneeze with the passenger door open. Hopefully she heard it too =P This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad.