[Silverbane]

Originally Posted by crashsti

this really sounds to good to be true if you ask me.

i can't get past the idea of running 5 or 6 psi more boost than the engine can safetly handle on whatever octane gas and then depend on water injection to keep everything from blowing to pieces. severe detonation does'nt take long to blow the hell out of an engine.

After all this discussion you still havent researched WI have you? So why do you continue to argue if you wont educate yourself on the discussion?

WI is basically an octane booster to fuel, like racegas. While I say that 5-6psi is not a harset number yes you cant run more boost with WI (maybe more maybe less) The fact is that if tuned for it, it can help keep your engine together better than without it... like racegas

Also by "tuned for it" can mean your basic setup, you just adjust the WI to spray the right amount w/o interfearing with anything else.
If your engine runs fine now, you adjust water to spray w/o adjusting yoru basic setup then you can lower intake temps... if your run out your still at your basic tune, like your engine runs today (although why would you run out of water??)

Like someone else said, they know about WI they just choose not to run it, fine, that is an informed decision but when someone asks, and another person brings up WI people shouldnt knock it if they dont understand it.

[crashsti]

crashsti wrote:
Quote:

I've seen a 2.0 wrx make 40 more hp just adding WI with myt own eyes, if that doesnt sell you guys I dont know what will.


this really sounds to good to be true if you ask me.

i can't get past the idea of running 5 or 6 psi more boost than the engine can safetly handle on whatever octane gas and then depend on water injection to keep everything from blowing to pieces. severe detonation does'nt take long to blow the hell out of an engine.


After all this discussion you still havent researched WI have you? So why do you continue to argue if you wont educate yourself on the discussion?

WI is basically an octane booster to fuel, like racegas. While I say that 5-6psi is not a harset number yes you cant run more boost with WI (maybe more maybe less) The fact is that if tuned for it, it can help keep your engine together better than without it... like racegas

Also by "tuned for it" can mean your basic setup, you just adjust the WI to spray the right amount w/o interfearing with anything else.
If your engine runs fine now, you adjust water to spray w/o adjusting yoru basic setup then you can lower intake temps... if your run out your still at your basic tune, like your engine runs today (although why would you run out of water??)

Like someone else said, they know about WI they just choose not to run it, fine, that is an informed decision but when someone asks, and another person brings up WI people shouldnt knock it if they dont understand it.

_________________
Silverbane

where did i knock water injection in that particular post? all i was saying was that to see a 40 horsepower increase from anything other than a blower, turbo or nitrous is hard to believe. the STi makes 300 horsepower at the flywheel, to see a 40 horsepower increase would be enormous. in that particular case the car in question was a 2.0 wrx so to see a 40 horsepower increase on that car would be even more substantial and even harder to believe. there is something to be said for keeping things simple, water injection just adds another variable to the equation.

[crashsti]

a good indicator of how well a particular product works is how popular it is. there was a time when nitrous was thought of as nothing more than a way to blow up you engine. now its considered the easiest and cheapest way to make huge power. its widely used on daily driven street vehicles. turbos were also difficult to tune until fuel injection came about and changed all of that as well. now as for WI, how popular is it really? its not something that i have ever seen used, at least not in the world of V8's and i have never even seen it on any of the import build ups that i have read about. i have only heard from one man who uses WI and he uses it on a carburated, twin turbo, small block V8, that is in a BOAT. yes, it was mentioned that cars in WRC competition use it but that really does'nt mean its good for any street car. top fuel dragsters use Nitromethane to make huge power, but that does'nt mean its something i need.

[crashsti]

here is an interesting technical overview of water injection. i think it sums it up pretty well.
http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/waterinjection.html

[bitabur]

Originally Posted by crashsti

bitabur- its not as funny as it sounds. you fill your gas tank with dirty fuel all the time, you suck filthy air into your engine everyday, the only thing keeping out the dirt is filters. its not as though you run special bottled air on your engine or get special gasoline that is free of dirt and other particles. you depend on filters...so why is it so hard to believe that with a boat you could run filtered water directly from the body of water that you're boating on.

Because pump gas and air that you're intaking aren't saturated with junk, not to mention disolved impurities.... like salt, for one....

I suppose if the system was only designed to run in fresh water, maybe. But I think you'd be a lot dumber to run on the water you're running in than to have a pure water reservoir.



As for popularity reflecting how well something works, that's hardly the case. Popularity reflects how easy something is to use.....

Also, your link doesn't work...

[roadrnr37]

Well let us dispell this notion of using dirty water right now... No way in hell.... An yes Crash it is true that the egine is ont the one that suffers, but you have o understand that WI systems use very fine misters and regulators that cannot ahndle dirt. All my water is filtered and in truth i normally use bottled water if i can, just for that extra purity. ... DO NOT USE LAKE WATER..ect. Now as for furhter application, WI is also used in aircraft, for takeoffs. That sudden burst of power from "exploding" water molocules is an unbelievabel power source. and yes i know it does not truly explode but when water turns to steam at an insanly rapid rate it creates power. The 40 hp gain is not unrealistic at all... again i go back to sating if you really haven't done the research, keep an open mind. One of the main reason you don't see WI on standard auto's to day is 2 fold.... ONE= oil profits but 2 is that they are expensive to make, operate, maintain and control. I adjust mine all the time depending on what i am doing and what the weather is. On a foggy morning when i am going fishing i dont' neet more water, the air has enough moisture to control the burn....

And crash, you are right you put dirty gas in your car every day, but i dont' know about you but every race car, hotrod, musclecar, Import and daily driver i have ever owned,or built has two things.. a fuel fitler and an air cleaner............
sorry about the typing guys... it has been a long day....... If you have other questions... keep em comin

[roadrnr37]

Another thing i think is important to understand is that when using WI you can run leaner and leaner is faster... as long as you are not burning cylinders... hee hee beeen there. Running lean is the key to power and perfromance, and of course MPG. Take into consideration water expansion VS Fuel.....something to think about

[bitabur]

Originally Posted by roadrnr37

That sudden burst of power from "exploding" water molocules is an unbelievabel power source. and yes i know it does not truly explode but when water turns to steam at an insanly rapid rate it creates power.

This is one of the parts of WI i think people are missing - when the cylinder fires the water is vaporizing. The volume of a gas proportional to the volume of a liquid is 1000 times expansion, creating a lot of extra pressure (read: power) and also making use of the thermal energy that is normally dissipated as heat.

[crashsti]

roadrnr37 wrote:
That sudden burst of power from "exploding" water molocules is an unbelievabel power source. and yes i know it does not truly explode but when water turns to steam at an insanly rapid rate it creates power.



This is one of the parts of WI i think people are missing - when the cylinder fires the water is vaporizing. The volume of a gas proportional to the volume of a liquid is 1000 times expansion, creating a lot of extra pressure (read: power) and also making use of the thermal energy that is normally dissipated as heat.

Bitabur- we are not running a steam engine. the general idea of the internal combustion engine is to burn air and fuel. the more air that you can stuff into an engine the more fuel you can burn. the more fuel you can burn the more power you make. while yes its true that water does expand when it becomes a gas that has absolutely nothing to do with the power gains seen with WI. water is composed of two hydrogen and one oxygen atom. when they are exposed to heat they change to a gaseous state but it still leaves as water. maybe you're think of nitrous? where you actually burn the oxygen atoms? i have always been aware that WI helps prevent detonation. that is its only purpose. my point is that i really see absolutely no application for WI on the street. i don't think that WI systems are durable enough for a daily driver and then add in the fact that a specific tune is required to make it work. i don't think most people have access to a AWD chassis dyno and someone with enough experience to tune an engine with WI to fully take advantage of the benefits of WI. it is so possible to make big power without WI, why bother with the added hassle.

[crashsti]

hey guys, don't get me wrong. i'm not trying to be a jerk. just enjoying the friendly discussion we are having.

[bitabur]

Same - I still think you just don't understand how versatile the stuff really is.

It's not that hard to set up, and you can add a WI system without tuning at all - in the case of the STi, or any car with variable valve timing, the stock ECU just advance timing and make a little more power automatically.

[dmpi]

I have to agree with crashsti here. From a thermo view of engine combustion, water will take energy out of the system to make steam. And this energy is what expands the gases that moves the piston. Sure you'll make some stream, but I don't see a net gain here. More like a net loss if you compare water to the fuel/air mixture that you just displaced.
Also I think you guys under estimate the amount of energy needed to vaporize water at +14 bar.

[bitabur]

lol..... considering 14 bar is over 200 psi, i'm quite sure it takes a lot of energy.

The thermal energy in the engine only increases expansion a small ammount - the combustion of the gasses is where most of this energy comes from. The steam expansion will make up for, if not surpass, the extra energy provided by the expanding gasses from thermal energy. At the same time you'll run a more sustained temp, and aviod detonation.

[crashsti]

my point is that on a street/strip/auto-cross destined vehicle, water injection may pose more of a tuning headache than a benefit. so, for the majority of people who own an STi, WI may not be the best option and the money spent on WI could be better spent elsewhere. there are many companies offering what are essentially guaranteed performance packages. all the R&D has been done for you. if the package claims 350 horses at the rear wheels you ar emore than likely going to see just that, maybe more because most companies purposely underestimate the numbers. there is no such thing as a free lunch.