[diabloadsit]

I like the not crazy like a fox thing.
Ohh yea the twin disc in daily city would suck.

Originally Posted by wrrrx

Exedy twin as in their Hyper Twin??
Yes, that would be crazy.
Not crazy-like-a-fox-crazy, just crazy-crazy.
If we're talking about the same unit (clutch+flywheel combo), it's a royal PITA. Enough so that I go to great lengths to avoid traffic.
And I live in Portland, a far cry from NYC traffic!

I'm still researching a better alternative for my driving. I hear good things about the RPS, just dunno anyone local who's done it...
Good luck!

[sciolist]

Originally Posted by wrrrx

I've driven in New York City... and I've driven in Bend, Oregon. Not sure Paul's experience is exactly apples to (big?) apples...
Although, I'll save the OP some time- Sciolist loves his Exedy Hyper setup.

Paul was even born in the Big Apple! So how 'bout them apples? And no B&T isht here folks, talking about the side of the river where they're smart enought to simply not drive. Okay, enough of that.

Topicality:

• Everything Flycaster says is good advice.
• Same with Poly.
• Yes, I do like the ETP, and I do drive it on the street.
• My opinion is that you want to not dog the ETP. Get on it and GTF right back off... but then that's generally true of clutches. Riding the clutch is for soccer moms and californiacators.
• If you want to develop a high-ish H/P car and drive in traffic, then my advice would be to look at single-plate clutches with elevated, but only to the minimal extent needed, clamping force... and plan to replace the disc with some frequency. Wait, see point #1.
• Yes, you definitely can slip the ETP, but I kind of get the sense it doesn't like that.

So, why favor the ETP over a high-force, single-disc clutch? Because it's a proven, balanced system (including flywheel) and it will last longer than a comparably fast and and stout single-plate unit. It hooks up quickly, and that's what it likes to do. It distributes the pick-up over a much higher surface area than a puck clutch. Oh, and my empirical data indicates that it's not going to snap your axles... although YMMV.

Bottom line: Buy the thing that's designed for your application, and use it the way it was (more or less) intended to be used. Or at the very least, don't whine when you abuse stuff and it busts. Oh, and don't show up to a (fiscal) gunfight with a knife.

[Flycaster]

Here's the bit: no one loves a clutch in traffic. If I'm stuck in rush hour on the 405 in LA, give me a freakin' Lexus and some good tunes. Done.

Can a TP be driven, and driven well in hard traffic? Sure. Like any beefy clutch it's going to take a little adjustment (mainly with your left foot) and it puts a higher premium on rev-matching. Once that is dialed in, it can be driven smoothly, even with 400whp. I do it every day. Hell, even my wife has figured it out, and she almost never drives a clutch anymore.

Go find a few guys in your area and try a few different clutches. See what you like best. And in the meantime, don't be in a rush - that stock clutch just might last a lot longer than you think, especially if you're kind to it.

[sciolist]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

Can a TP be driven, and driven well in hard traffic? Sure.

...but it costs you wear. The way to preserve the clutch is to get off it. If you're going to drive around like you're in a Grey Poupon add, then maybe don't drop two grand on a clutch that won't let you swap plates.

[Flycaster]

Originally Posted by sciolist

...but it costs you wear. The way to preserve the clutch is to get off it...

And what clutch would either of those not apply to?

[blindfold]

I'm still on the wall of either buying this twinplate or a Carbonetic version.

Note, Carbonetic is a carbon/carbon twin plate vs Exedy's ceremetallic. I found that carbonetic is about 500 bucks more than the Exedy.

[sciolist]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

And what clutch would either of those not apply to?

The issue at hand is not to find a magic clutch that never wears, but to determine whether the wear characteristics of a given clutch are appropriate for a certain task.

In many cases (and this certainly is not limited to clutches) people are using parts on these cars in ways they weren't really intended to be used, which is fine. But, I still think it makes sense to consider what a given part was fundamentally designed to do before you bolt it on your car.

When Craig swapped my CRX, it had close to 190K on the original clutch, which still worked just fine. Longevity is obviously a design criterion for Honda in that case. Does that make it a better clutch than the ETD?

[Flycaster]

I have to disagree. Use is not the primary criterion, torque capacity is. The guy needs to find a clutch that will handle close to 500 ft. lbs. (at the crank), and that limits his choices severely; at that torque level, any clutch he considers is going to be designed for light/moderate competition use. Addtionally, one can only assume that since he is going to a 400+whp GT52 setup, that he is not going to drive it like a "Grey Poupon add."

Ultimately, if he doesn't know how to use a clutch properly, it doesn't matter what he puts in there. If is abused, it will die, end of story, and "getting off it" quickly is just as important for a stock honda clutch as it is for a TD - in that regard, you should drive a TD no differently than any other clutch.

BTW, the TD's can be rebuilt. Dustin can get replacement plates from Exedy.

[sciolist]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

BTW, the TD's can be rebuilt. Dustin can get replacement plates from Exedy.

No isht. Way cool. I did not know that... and I guess that does change my perspective some too.

No question that you know more about all of this than I do.

Guess my take is that the available, applicable clutches break down into three categories: Puck, high-power SD and TD. The puck is going to pick up too fast for DD, and it's going to wear very quickly if slipped. The SD is cheaper to rebuild/replace (although not as much, in light of your revalation above). SD is also cheaper as an initial purchase.

I was looking at the TD as kind of a compromise. It picks up fast, but not axle-snapping fast (I've proven that). It has a large friction surface, and hence better longevity than an SD. It also happens to come with a flywheel that's well designed to balance my launching and throttle response criteria... heavy enough to get off the line, but light enough to allow me to do more of the run without braking.

One 'advantage' I have is that my car makes a fairly substantial jump in torque between race and street maps, so the clutch is not always having to hold that. I also don't have as much torque as the turbo-swap guys... only about #350 at the wheel.

[Flycaster]

Originally Posted by sciolist

I was looking at the TD as kind of a compromise...

And it is, no doubt about it. The same thing is true, however, of even the ACT Street and RPS Max clutches (both single, sprung plates good for 500 ft. lbs.) In the case of those clampers, you trade a harder pedal effort for slightly more progressive engagement grab; in our case, we trade slightly tighter engagement grab for less pedal effort. Both types of clutches require some adjustment in pedal timing and each puts a premium on good rev matching so you don't shock the drivetrain (or dump coffee all over your passenger). I did it twice until I got the timing down, it wasn't pretty, nor did it win me any style points with the audience.

Again, I end up back at the same place: can you drive a TP, or one of the others, in NYC traffic? Sure. How long could you tolerate it? I dunno. IMO, the clutch type isn't the issue - having one is.

[sciolist]

I'd much rather be inconvenienced than be burning up my clutch.

Kinda the same thing with springs, shells, etc. Not all that concerned about comfort, but very concerned about losing 5/10/20K worth of parts if Muffy happens to hit me with the minivan.

Coming up on 28 years of no-contact street driving though, so something must be getting done right.

[wrrrx]

Originally Posted by sciolist

I'd much rather be inconvenienced than be burning up my clutch.

Kinda the same thing with springs, shells, etc. Not all that concerned about comfort, but very concerned about losing 5/10/20K worth of parts if Muffy happens to hit me with the minivan.

Coming up on 28 years of no-contact street driving though, so something must be getting done right.

What if Muffy jumps out in front of you and stalls her car, thanks to her barely streetable clutch?!

j/k.
(I do still hate my clutch though. Hell, I hadda drive my wife's MINI last week in the snow, since my clutch allows for no finesse whatsoever...)

[sciolist]

Originally Posted by wrrrx

What if Muffy jumps out in front of you and stalls her car, thanks to her barely streetable clutch?!

Well, I guess thank goodness the SCCA wunderkind won't let me swap out my front bumper beam. That, and the fact that we all carry huge guns down here, so I could probably clear her detritus with ballistics prior to impact.

[Flycaster]

Originally Posted by sciolist

...Coming up on 28 years of no-contact street driving though, so something must be getting done right...

Pure luck - the law of averages (or a 120lb. doe intent on commiting ritual suicide) will change that some day. It happens to everyone eventually, so keep that insurance paid up.

[sciolist]

Had my doe back in '81. Just happened to be riding shotgun for that leg of the trip.