APS DR525 Results, Tuning, etc. - Page 7

WolfPlayer · 12-29-2006, 07:32 AM

Threads like this make me want to cry for joy. It's nice see respected tuners like Christian, Scott, and Ed jumping in to give their opinions. It's a beautiful thing. As Scott said, "Much of what has been discussed here has been discussed among tuners for years". However, it's nice to see tuners breaking the mold and discussing this in a tuning forum for those of us who are trying to open up the learning process to the new tuner. From the start I was thinking this is 'MAF Lag'. However, an exhaustive search didn't reveal much on the boards. Then I doubted my original hypothesis because I can't be the only one to bring this up in detail given that the USDM STI has now been in production for years (and people have been installing FMICs for almost as long). There has to be a lot of detail out there about this. I couldn't find much of anything.

The more and more I look at this, the more and more it looks like MAF lag (and 'street-smarts/instinct' tells you that it makes sense because of this huge volume of piping and core that has been added).

t

WolfPlayer · 12-29-2006, 07:35 AM

Crystal,

I'll send you my .hex later tonight.

Regarding the pill in the boost line. Absolutely. Been there, done that. I have a mechanical gauge so I still need a pill. I replaced the stock pill with another one that is slightly bigger. Worked like a charm.

I don't see me selling this FMIC. Call me a glutton for punishment. Fact is, once the turbo spools and I get passed the rich spike, it is working really really well. MAF V are awesome! It's really running great once she is spooled up. I do hate the shifting lag ... but, part of that is due to this rich spike. I'll still seriously look into the BPV relocation too.

Thanks again man. You'll have my .hex soon.

t

crystal_Imprezav · 12-29-2006, 07:42 AM

Haha yea, I feel so professional now. IMO the reason this has not come up more often is due to that exact reason, most people don't tune their own cars and problems like these are left to the pro's who in most cases only discuss these issues amongst themselves. Lets start a new forum for the better educated tuners to discuss amongst the community of issues that some less experienced tuners can use as reference and topics like this can be throughly discussed amongst more experienced tuners. We can start putting up more tuning articles like your newb ST guide and articles like this on how to tune a FMIC. I've got a article that I have been working on for subytech.com on how to tune your STi via enginuity, st, and etc. Still in the works and progressing slowly as issues like the FMIC tune take up so much time. Let make me a MOD! rofl.

R4ND0M_AX3 · 12-29-2006, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfPlayer

...I can't be the only one to bring this up in detail given that the USDM STI has now been in production for years (and people have been installing FMICs for almost as long). There has to be a lot of detail out there about this. I couldn't find much of anything...

Most people don't have widebands permenently installed. They just don't notice.

crystal_Imprezav · 12-29-2006, 07:47 AM

The rich spike I am certain you will be able to tune out. The maf lag, not so sure. I too am a big fan of the upper rpm benefits of the FMIC. Since in drag racing type situations you will never spend time at the rich spike points except maybe in 1st gear launch if your not that great at it, the top end benefits out way the neg. benefits. I have added another degree and a half of timing up top without any issues and it is great. I am able to pull 20psi into 5000 rpms and it feels great especially coming from me where I am use to 24 psi and meth. The only issue I have with the no meth state I am at now is the IDC problem with stock injectors. I am pretty much maxing them out at right before 5000rpms running pretty much 100% IDC's to redline there after. But obviously you do not have that problem with the JEC's which I will be looking into soon once, I get all that I can out of the stock turbo and go green. Injectors are just so much damn money!

R4ND0M_AX3 · 12-29-2006, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subaru of Gwinnett

There should be a "maf delay" line of code in there somewhere.

SS

This has me thinking a little.
At first I thought finding a MAF delay type of adjustment in the ECU would fix it. Then I thought if we couldn't find such a thing then how about some sort of delay device between the ECU and the MAF.
But then I started to wonder if the delay would be the same across all flows.
I don't think it is. So would it help? Would the pros of an adjustable delay outweigh the cons?

Isn't the tip-in decay value (that we cant yet adjust) a kind of MAF delay?

WolfPlayer · 12-30-2006, 09:04 AM

The MAF Delay box is a neat idea. I don't know THAT much about electronics so I can't really discuss it any further.

As far as the tip-in is concerned, that won't work. The main tip-in is based off of a change in the TPS. The tip in happens as soon as you open the throttle. The rich spiking that I am seeing happens AFTER that. So, the tip-in decay wouldn't help .... it would be an option if you wanted to inject the tip-in for a longer or shorter time. Longer would make you richer.

t

daemon · 12-30-2006, 10:52 AM

Probably the easiest way to make an adjustable delay box (that I can think of) is to use a ADC to shift register to DAC. Delays are much easier to create in the digital world. Actually probably wouldn't be that hard and pretty cheap to do. Could be a fun little project.

WolfPlayer · 12-30-2006, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daemon

Probably the easiest way to make an adjustable delay box (that I can think of) is to use a ADC to shift register to DAC. Delays are much easier to create in the digital world. Actually probably wouldn't be that hard and pretty cheap to do. Could be a fun little project.

So when are you going to assemble a couple of these for testing?

t

daemon · 12-30-2006, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfPlayer

So when are you going to assemble a couple of these for testing?

I'll put it "on the list". Maybe after I get my car tuned up again I'll look into looking into it.

Not long ago I was also thinking it might be fun to create a little circuit that would generate a fake MAF voltage to feed to the ECU via the MAF wiring based on speed density calculations.

Lots of fun things I'm sure I'll never find the time to try.

R4ND0M_AX3 · 12-30-2006, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daemon

...Not long ago I was also thinking it might be fun to create a little circuit that would generate a fake MAF voltage to feed to the ECU via the MAF wiring based on speed density calculations...

The Full Throttle MAF Translator pro can generate fake MAF signals from speed density.
http://www.maftpro.com/tproinfo.shtml

A little pricey though.

daemon · 12-30-2006, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R4ND0M_AX3

The Full Throttle MAF Translator pro can generate fake MAF signals from speed density.
http://www.maftpro.com/tproinfo.shtml

A little pricey though.

Thanks for the link. Definitely a little pricey. You can pick up a microcontroller chip for $15 or so that has ADC/DAC/RAM+flash. Then some ancillary parts and a little programming, and bam. Just saved a ton of cash. Of course it'll take a bit more work than just whipping out a credit card.

lackskill · 12-31-2006, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfPlayer

This thread is getting so long that I don't think people will even read it this far - lol.

With a FIBET of 0 (-100%), and a stock tip-in (which is ludicrous given that the JECS need more tip-in down low), the car is 100% the same. ~9.5:1 AFRs on spool.

I have now expanded my search for this issue to part throttle as well. Guess what? I notice the same damn thing at part throttle

. Specifically, I notice that when I am cruising on the highway, and I give the car a little gas, the AFRs first go slightly lean (not enough tip-in) and then a rich spike of about 1.0 AFR, and then the AFRs return to my fuel map values - lol. This is all open-loop with no fuel corrections (0.39/0.39).

The part throttle data reinforces that I don't have a boost leak (which we already know because I pressure tested the system with 25psi). If it isn't leaking at 25psi it sure isn't leaking at 5psi (rofl).

I don't have anything else left to try really. I can do the BPV relocation suggested by crystal. However, this is happing on spool everywhere (not just between shifts).

The next thing is to remove the FMIC top pipes, install the TMIC, and ensure that everything works as it is suppose to be working. Yay. If it does, then I might be looking at taking the topside cold charge pipe to have a MAF adapter welded on

to go Blow-Through (much to the chagrin of RainMaker who is hating his blow-through.

* I thank everyone who has been working through this with me. Christian (Cobb), Daemon, Crystal, overboost & Ed (Eq), SS (SOG), Nick, etc.

t

Nonsense! I have been following this thread since late pg 1. Its like an STi soap opera. Keep up the good work, hope you figure it out soon. Wish I could help...

crystal_Imprezav · 12-31-2006, 08:22 AM

Ok, from my past few bored days I have been talking to some other tuners and looking over some maps with FMIC tunes in them. It seems like most are adding some additional closed loop delay, a little more modified load than the cobb stage2 map but less than stock, and linearizing the closed loop TPS data with less throttle to compensate. Can't confirm if this would work but it seems like it would help at least delaying to fuel getting sprayed. Wolf, if you send me your map, I can try and plug some of these points in and you can review if it works or not since I won't be able to test it out until the 5th when I get back.

WolfPlayer · 12-31-2006, 09:51 AM

Thanks for the reminder. The map has been sent to your vt.edu account. Thanks for the second set of eyes. I don't know if the open-closed loop stuff will work. I had tested a 90 modified load with a 90 TPS and the ECU still went into open loop at the standard 2.5 volts. HOWEVER, now that I think about it, the code might be setup such that a 0/0/0 delay means that the rest of the tables are 100% ignored. Hmmmm. This might be a neato thing to try.

t

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystal_Imprezav

Ok, from my past few bored days I have been talking to some other tuners and looking over some maps with FMIC tunes in them. It seems like most are adding some additional closed loop delay, a little more modified load than the cobb stage2 map but less than stock, and linearizing the closed loop TPS data with less throttle to compensate. Can't confirm if this would work but it seems like it would help at least delaying to fuel getting sprayed. Wolf, if you send me your map, I can try and plug some of these points in and you can review if it works or not since I won't be able to test it out until the 5th when I get back.

12-29-2006, 07:32 AM	#91
WolfPlayer Moderator & ECU Tech Car: 05 CGM STI Fav Mod: mo boostaz Location: Fredneck, MD Posts: 3,703 Join Date: Jun 2004 Trader Rating: (6)	Threads like this make me want to cry for joy. It's nice see respected tuners like Christian, Scott, and Ed jumping in to give their opinions. It's a beautiful thing. As Scott said, "Much of what has been discussed here has been discussed among tuners for years". However, it's nice to see tuners breaking the mold and discussing this in a tuning forum for those of us who are trying to open up the learning process to the new tuner. From the start I was thinking this is 'MAF Lag'. However, an exhaustive search didn't reveal much on the boards. Then I doubted my original hypothesis because I can't be the only one to bring this up in detail given that the USDM STI has now been in production for years (and people have been installing FMICs for almost as long). There has to be a lot of detail out there about this. I couldn't find much of anything. The more and more I look at this, the more and more it looks like MAF lag (and 'street-smarts/instinct' tells you that it makes sense because of this huge volume of piping and core that has been added). t This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad.

12-29-2006, 07:35 AM	#92
WolfPlayer Moderator & ECU Tech Car: 05 CGM STI Fav Mod: mo boostaz Location: Fredneck, MD Posts: 3,703 Join Date: Jun 2004 Trader Rating: (6)	Crystal, I'll send you my .hex later tonight. Regarding the pill in the boost line. Absolutely. Been there, done that. I have a mechanical gauge so I still need a pill. I replaced the stock pill with another one that is slightly bigger. Worked like a charm. I don't see me selling this FMIC. Call me a glutton for punishment. Fact is, once the turbo spools and I get passed the rich spike, it is working really really well. MAF V are awesome! It's really running great once she is spooled up. I do hate the shifting lag ... but, part of that is due to this rich spike. I'll still seriously look into the BPV relocation too. Thanks again man. You'll have my .hex soon. t

12-29-2006, 07:42 AM	#93
crystal_Imprezav Spec C Club Car: Slow 05 STi Fav Mod: Loping Idle Location: Chewy's Garage Posts: 1,878 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (12)	Haha yea, I feel so professional now. IMO the reason this has not come up more often is due to that exact reason, most people don't tune their own cars and problems like these are left to the pro's who in most cases only discuss these issues amongst themselves. Lets start a new forum for the better educated tuners to discuss amongst the community of issues that some less experienced tuners can use as reference and topics like this can be throughly discussed amongst more experienced tuners. We can start putting up more tuning articles like your newb ST guide and articles like this on how to tune a FMIC. I've got a article that I have been working on for subytech.com on how to tune your STi via enginuity, st, and etc. Still in the works and progressing slowly as issues like the FMIC tune take up so much time. Let make me a MOD! rofl.

12-29-2006, 07:47 AM	#95
crystal_Imprezav Spec C Club Car: Slow 05 STi Fav Mod: Loping Idle Location: Chewy's Garage Posts: 1,878 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (12)	The rich spike I am certain you will be able to tune out. The maf lag, not so sure. I too am a big fan of the upper rpm benefits of the FMIC. Since in drag racing type situations you will never spend time at the rich spike points except maybe in 1st gear launch if your not that great at it, the top end benefits out way the neg. benefits. I have added another degree and a half of timing up top without any issues and it is great. I am able to pull 20psi into 5000 rpms and it feels great especially coming from me where I am use to 24 psi and meth. The only issue I have with the no meth state I am at now is the IDC problem with stock injectors. I am pretty much maxing them out at right before 5000rpms running pretty much 100% IDC's to redline there after. But obviously you do not have that problem with the JEC's which I will be looking into soon once, I get all that I can out of the stock turbo and go green. Injectors are just so much damn money!

12-30-2006, 09:04 AM	#97
WolfPlayer Moderator & ECU Tech Car: 05 CGM STI Fav Mod: mo boostaz Location: Fredneck, MD Posts: 3,703 Join Date: Jun 2004 Trader Rating: (6)	The MAF Delay box is a neat idea. I don't know THAT much about electronics so I can't really discuss it any further. As far as the tip-in is concerned, that won't work. The main tip-in is based off of a change in the TPS. The tip in happens as soon as you open the throttle. The rich spiking that I am seeing happens AFTER that. So, the tip-in decay wouldn't help .... it would be an option if you wanted to inject the tip-in for a longer or shorter time. Longer would make you richer. t

12-30-2006, 10:52 AM	#98
daemon The Next Petter Solberg Car: 2004 STi Location: Florida Posts: 865 Join Date: Feb 2004 Trader Rating: (0)	Probably the easiest way to make an adjustable delay box (that I can think of) is to use a ADC to shift register to DAC. Delays are much easier to create in the digital world. Actually probably wouldn't be that hard and pretty cheap to do. Could be a fun little project.

12-31-2006, 08:22 AM	#104
crystal_Imprezav Spec C Club Car: Slow 05 STi Fav Mod: Loping Idle Location: Chewy's Garage Posts: 1,878 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (12)	Ok, from my past few bored days I have been talking to some other tuners and looking over some maps with FMIC tunes in them. It seems like most are adding some additional closed loop delay, a little more modified load than the cobb stage2 map but less than stock, and linearizing the closed loop TPS data with less throttle to compensate. Can't confirm if this would work but it seems like it would help at least delaying to fuel getting sprayed. Wolf, if you send me your map, I can try and plug some of these points in and you can review if it works or not since I won't be able to test it out until the 5th when I get back.