APS DR525 Results, Tuning, etc. - Page 2

WolfPlayer · 12-19-2006, 05:16 AM

I set the Fuel Injector Boost Error Trim (FIBET) to 25 (-80%) and the rich spike is still there. Honestly, it's like nothing changed. I did a high resolution log (10 pts/sec) logging the TPS Delta and nothing 'interesting' shows up. There is a 0.12 TPS Delta but that doesn't explain a full point of AFR richer. Woo! The car is still slower and I have nothing new to report - lol.

The reported wideband AFR, once the turbo is spooled, matches pretty close to the fuel table AFR values so I feel good about that (which means my MAF table is calibrated pretty good).

It's like the MAF is reading the increase in airflow - but that airflow now gets to the motor later. Thus, the ECU is injecting fuel before the air gets there due to the delay. This jives completely with the piping and volume of a FMIC compared to stock. Hmmmm.

t

crystal_Imprezav · 12-19-2006, 11:06 AM

Hmm couldn't you technically rescale/calibrate the injector latency to take car of this?

WolfPlayer · 12-19-2006, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystal_Imprezav

Hmm couldn't you technically rescale/calibrate the injector latency to take car of this?

Can you explain further why you think this might work because I can't come up with how it will

I think I see where you are going with this but everything I think of turns out to have an opposite reaction that counteracts that.

t

crystal_Imprezav · 12-19-2006, 01:00 PM

Well in my theory since at least two of the voltages are never used or reached so (I have not logged or tested this) but when at WOT and when you push the clutch in maybe there is a change in the voltage even in the slightest bit that would differ from cruise and WOT that could allow you to rescale the voltages to those values and you could decrease the values to run leaner. Since this would have a related value to fuel pressure (voltage) I think this would maybe work. Who knows, but that rich spike has got to suck and I would try a lot of things to try and combat it.

Another theory (just throwing out random ideas) would be to set your EBCS to a non-interrupt mode and have it as a 3-port in which when the throttle is changed it could bleed air back into the intake track helping to lean it out a bit more, but I doubt this would be enough to help that much. Maybe go back to a non-crushed BPV that would allow more air to plumb back into the intake? Or run more boost to do the same

I will try out a whole bunch of stuff this weekend and post up any results I get.

daemon · 12-19-2006, 01:08 PM

FWIW, I did test the voltage vs. load a while back when playing with intake and injector calibrations. The voltage does have a tendency to drop under heavy load. There is a scatter plot of this by me somewhere on this board.

mofoSTI · 12-19-2006, 01:21 PM

subscribed

JJ18Sniper · 12-19-2006, 01:58 PM

Seems like this may be my next option Wolf

WolfPlayer · 12-19-2006, 07:04 PM

I'll get a log of some WOT voltages.

Overall, I just think the fuel is getting there before the air. This is well after the throttle has been pressed to the floor so Accel Enrich based on TPS is useless. I either need to decrease the fuel based off of a change in boost or else increase the injector delay for Accel Enrich. The actual fuel tables are nuts on so I don't want to fudge something stupid in there (and it wouldn't work great anyhow given that I could floor the car at any RPM point and get a rich spike).

The BOV is a neat idea but this happens from a low RPM spool too. Floor it at 2000rpms. At full boost at 3200 (3rd gear) I get 2 records with 9.x AFRs. You can feel it too - the car has a little stutter due to the crazy fast rich spike. Grrr.

Anyway I look at it ... I think I'm screwed.

t

sti752 · 12-19-2006, 08:15 PM

Maybe I am totally wrong here and maybe you've already thought of this, but wouldn't your tip in enrichment be the most likely culprit on the rich afrs b/w shifts.

Unless you have changed them, maybe you did and I missed it, isn't adding more volume between compressor outlet and throttle body going to throw off your tip in?

From what you said about it seeming like the fuel was getting there before the air does this could be a possibility.

WolfPlayer · 12-20-2006, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sti752

Maybe I am totally wrong here and maybe you've already thought of this, but wouldn't your tip in enrichment be the most likely culprit on the rich afrs b/w shifts.

I've thought about this too and already have tests lined up. Just have to do them. I already did a high resolution log showing Delta TPS. I didn't see anything of interest. However, it is possible that I wasn't able to catch it. Thus, I've lined up some tests to be completed tomorrow.

FWIW, the tests today were horrible. The car went so rich between shifts and on spoolup that the car bogged and jerked horribly. Yuck.

If I can't get this rich spike ironed out then I will go back to the TMIC. However, I am not giving up. I still have hopes that the Accel Enrich vs. TPS will help even though the logs say otherwise.

t

daemon · 12-20-2006, 05:59 AM

BTW, I didn't mention it earlier because I sort of forgot about it, but I did end up leaning the tipin a bit and I think it helped. However, one in five (or so) times I would floor it from a cruise, I'd end up with a super lean spike instead. Very frustrating choosing between potential knock and momentary bog.

WolfPlayer · 12-20-2006, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daemon

BTW, I didn't mention it earlier because I sort of forgot about it, but I did end up leaning the tipin a bit and I think it helped. However, one in five (or so) times I would floor it from a cruise, I'd end up with a super lean spike instead. Very frustrating choosing between potential knock and momentary bog.

We shouldn't have to choose between those 2

What boggles me is that I firmly believe that this HAS to be solvable in either the TPS or FIBET ... or both. There are just too many people with upgraded injectors and FMICs. Something about what you and I are doing is the same

I don't know if that is good or bad. What I do know is that I made a HUGE change to the FIBET and my AFRs were still crazy rich. If the FIBET was going to work then I would have seen something. So, time for me to try a huge change in the TPS table to see if I see something. What gets me is that TPS-based tip-in should be immediate. The whole point of acceleration enrichment is that as soon as the throttle blades are cracked, extra fuel is injected. This problem does NOT correspond to that. Rather, if I hit the throttle the car is 100% fine until I reach max boost. It's great. It's only when I hit my max boost that the rich AFRs happen. TPS based Tip-in should be long over at this point ... long over.

It's crazy. In my logs this morning my BPW jumped from 19ms to 22ms - just like that. Instantaneous 9.x AFRs. The damn wideband even measured a 9.1x. That is just stupid rich. I think it has something to do with these injectors, the FMIC, and the very quick spool (I think).

t

crystal_Imprezav · 12-20-2006, 12:25 PM

Hmm very odd an I think it may have something to do with the injectors. We shall find out this weekend when mine goes in. Just got it in today and I must say I am pretty impressed with the ssac quality of this FMIC. It is a bit on the heavy side but the smaller core should help out with the lag. I think if you adjusted the FIBTE and as much as you did than something DEF should have changed. I would think maybe your latency values mite be off a bit now that it is only running rich as peak boost.

daemon · 12-20-2006, 12:34 PM

Definitely worth a small alteration in the lower voltage injector latencies to lean them up a bit as voltage drops. What have you got to lose?

If my car ever runs again, I'll have to start working on the problem again myself.

R4ND0M_AX3 · 12-20-2006, 03:31 PM

I'm wondering if the problem is related to being near target boost or beyond some hi limit that we don't yet know about.

Can you try a few runs with stock-like boost targets to see if it does the same thing?

Any long hills in your area so you can see if continuous fixed level boost runs rich or if the richness startes to lean out after some retardly long decay time?

12-19-2006, 05:16 AM	#16
WolfPlayer Moderator & ECU Tech Car: 05 CGM STI Fav Mod: mo boostaz Location: Fredneck, MD Posts: 3,546 Join Date: Jun 2004 Trader Rating: (6)	I set the Fuel Injector Boost Error Trim (FIBET) to 25 (-80%) and the rich spike is still there. Honestly, it's like nothing changed. I did a high resolution log (10 pts/sec) logging the TPS Delta and nothing 'interesting' shows up. There is a 0.12 TPS Delta but that doesn't explain a full point of AFR richer. Woo! The car is still slower and I have nothing new to report - lol. The reported wideband AFR, once the turbo is spooled, matches pretty close to the fuel table AFR values so I feel good about that (which means my MAF table is calibrated pretty good). It's like the MAF is reading the increase in airflow - but that airflow now gets to the motor later. Thus, the ECU is injecting fuel before the air gets there due to the delay. This jives completely with the piping and volume of a FMIC compared to stock. Hmmmm. t This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad.

12-20-2006, 03:31 PM	#30
R4ND0M_AX3 Grassroots STI Racer Car: 05 Subaru WRX STi Fav Mod: Cobb StreetTUNER Location: Elk Grove, CA USA Posts: 590 Join Date: Jul 2004 Trader Rating: (0)	I'm wondering if the problem is related to being near target boost or beyond some hi limit that we don't yet know about. Can you try a few runs with stock-like boost targets to see if it does the same thing? Any long hills in your area so you can see if continuous fixed level boost runs rich or if the richness startes to lean out after some retardly long decay time? This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad.

12-19-2006, 11:06 AM	#17
crystal_Imprezav Spec C Club Car: Slow 05 STi Fav Mod: Loping Idle Location: Chewy's Garage Posts: 1,845 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (11)	Hmm couldn't you technically rescale/calibrate the injector latency to take car of this?

12-19-2006, 01:00 PM	#19
crystal_Imprezav Spec C Club Car: Slow 05 STi Fav Mod: Loping Idle Location: Chewy's Garage Posts: 1,845 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (11)	Well in my theory since at least two of the voltages are never used or reached so (I have not logged or tested this) but when at WOT and when you push the clutch in maybe there is a change in the voltage even in the slightest bit that would differ from cruise and WOT that could allow you to rescale the voltages to those values and you could decrease the values to run leaner. Since this would have a related value to fuel pressure (voltage) I think this would maybe work. Who knows, but that rich spike has got to suck and I would try a lot of things to try and combat it. Another theory (just throwing out random ideas) would be to set your EBCS to a non-interrupt mode and have it as a 3-port in which when the throttle is changed it could bleed air back into the intake track helping to lean it out a bit more, but I doubt this would be enough to help that much. Maybe go back to a non-crushed BPV that would allow more air to plumb back into the intake? Or run more boost to do the same I will try out a whole bunch of stuff this weekend and post up any results I get.

12-19-2006, 01:08 PM	#20
daemon Professional STI Racer Car: 2004 STi Location: Florida Posts: 786 Join Date: Feb 2004 Trader Rating: (0)	FWIW, I did test the voltage vs. load a while back when playing with intake and injector calibrations. The voltage does have a tendency to drop under heavy load. There is a scatter plot of this by me somewhere on this board.

12-19-2006, 01:21 PM	#21
mofoSTI Spec C Club Car: 08 STI,sr20det 510 Fav Mod: boob job for wife Location: springtuckey, OR Posts: 2,165 Join Date: Sep 2004 Trader Rating: (0)	subscribed

12-19-2006, 01:58 PM	#22
JJ18Sniper Silver Member Car: 05 Subaru WRX STi Fav Mod: DB 20G, Diamond Black BBS RE's, S2K retrofit Location: Westchester, NY Posts: 4,470 Join Date: Jul 2004 Trader Rating: (5)	Seems like this may be my next option Wolf

12-19-2006, 07:04 PM	#23
WolfPlayer Moderator & ECU Tech Car: 05 CGM STI Fav Mod: mo boostaz Location: Fredneck, MD Posts: 3,546 Join Date: Jun 2004 Trader Rating: (6)	I'll get a log of some WOT voltages. Overall, I just think the fuel is getting there before the air. This is well after the throttle has been pressed to the floor so Accel Enrich based on TPS is useless. I either need to decrease the fuel based off of a change in boost or else increase the injector delay for Accel Enrich. The actual fuel tables are nuts on so I don't want to fudge something stupid in there (and it wouldn't work great anyhow given that I could floor the car at any RPM point and get a rich spike). The BOV is a neat idea but this happens from a low RPM spool too. Floor it at 2000rpms. At full boost at 3200 (3rd gear) I get 2 records with 9.x AFRs. You can feel it too - the car has a little stutter due to the crazy fast rich spike. Grrr. Anyway I look at it ... I think I'm screwed. t

12-19-2006, 08:15 PM	#24
sti752 Senior STI Driver Car: 05 Subaru WRX STi Fav Mod: Exige Location: Starkvegas, MS Posts: 379 Join Date: Jul 2005 Trader Rating: (6)	Maybe I am totally wrong here and maybe you've already thought of this, but wouldn't your tip in enrichment be the most likely culprit on the rich afrs b/w shifts. Unless you have changed them, maybe you did and I missed it, isn't adding more volume between compressor outlet and throttle body going to throw off your tip in? From what you said about it seeming like the fuel was getting there before the air does this could be a possibility.

12-20-2006, 05:59 AM	#26
daemon Professional STI Racer Car: 2004 STi Location: Florida Posts: 786 Join Date: Feb 2004 Trader Rating: (0)	BTW, I didn't mention it earlier because I sort of forgot about it, but I did end up leaning the tipin a bit and I think it helped. However, one in five (or so) times I would floor it from a cruise, I'd end up with a super lean spike instead. Very frustrating choosing between potential knock and momentary bog.

12-20-2006, 12:25 PM	#28
crystal_Imprezav Spec C Club Car: Slow 05 STi Fav Mod: Loping Idle Location: Chewy's Garage Posts: 1,845 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (11)	Hmm very odd an I think it may have something to do with the injectors. We shall find out this weekend when mine goes in. Just got it in today and I must say I am pretty impressed with the ssac quality of this FMIC. It is a bit on the heavy side but the smaller core should help out with the lag. I think if you adjusted the FIBTE and as much as you did than something DEF should have changed. I would think maybe your latency values mite be off a bit now that it is only running rich as peak boost.

12-20-2006, 12:34 PM	#29
daemon Professional STI Racer Car: 2004 STi Location: Florida Posts: 786 Join Date: Feb 2004 Trader Rating: (0)	Definitely worth a small alteration in the lower voltage injector latencies to lean them up a bit as voltage drops. What have you got to lose? If my car ever runs again, I'll have to start working on the problem again myself.