Not hitting "target" timing advance

TurboQueef · 07-24-2006, 05:06 AM

Here is a strange problem I just noticed:

Background:

I have set all three dynamic advance maps to the same value. I made an excel spreadsheet to show me what the "target" and "total" timing should be based on the values set in Primary and Dynamic maps, here is a copy for reference:

Problem:

From 5K to 6K I should get 19 degrees of timing advance (this is the max the ECU should give considering my primary is at 9.88 and the dynamic is 9.18 (19.06 total)

My datalogs show I am hitting "9" in Dynamic advance but I am only getting 17 degrees of advance (should be 19 with value of 9 in dynamic)

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 288pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=384 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" span=6 width=64><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 51.75pt" height=69><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 2pt double; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 2pt double; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; HEIGHT: 51.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64 height=69>RPM</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 2pt double; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64>Intake Air Temp.</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 2pt double; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64>Ignition Timing</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 2pt double; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64>Dynamic Advance</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 2pt double; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64>Calculated Load</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 2pt double; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 2pt double; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64>Rel. Pressure</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 2pt double; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>5835</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>91.4</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>17</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>9</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2.73</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 2pt double; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="16.831">16.831</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 2pt double; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=18 x:num>5876</TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>91.4</TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>17</TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>9</TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dashed; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2.7</TD><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 2pt double; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="16.541">16.541</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Any ideas?

Thanks

crystal_Imprezav · 07-24-2006, 07:50 AM

Is there anything in your knock learning table when you are connected? Also check to make sure your IAM is at 1. Timing is wacky in this area for me too. Sometimes it will hit 22 like its suppose to around 5k and sometimes it will be 21~21.5 while everything else is ok.

TurboQueef · 07-24-2006, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystal_Imprezav

Is there anything in your knock learning table when you are connected? Also check to make sure your IAM is at 1...

I will need to check the knock learning... did not think of that. (wouldn't it pull from dynamic advance though?) IAM is at 1

What fuel and boost u running 22 degrees at 5K with?

Thanks,

Jeff B

crystal_Imprezav · 07-24-2006, 10:05 AM

~11.1-3 starting at about 3k to redline. Boost I am running 18psi by 3k 19psi by 4k around 5k I am either still at 19 or just starting to taper into 18. I'm running 18* of advance by around 3k and 30* at redline. Car is happy and the dyno likes it too. It never pulls any timing and is rock solid at WOT. True about the knock learning though it may just be overall. I've never logged any knock learning and seen it with the pulled timing on the log.

*Edit after looking at the spreadsheet. Try setting all your DA to 9 or 8 (like the previous DA's before you went to 6) for your higher loads and adjusting you PI table to the desired calculated advance. This way in you log you can see if the DA is not 8 or 9 like you set it too then you know its pulling timing. If not then you know you need to add more timing into the PI table.

TurboQueef · 07-24-2006, 10:11 AM

All on 93 octane?

Also, I see you have a "custom" K&N intake... what did you do to it? I am about to place my order for a short ram Typhoon

Thanks again for all the updates...

jb

crystal_Imprezav · 07-24-2006, 04:11 PM

Yup 93 octance with crap 10% ethanol in it. I can actually get .5*-1* more timing with standard gas from Shell or Chevron buts its getting harder and harder to find normal gasoline around here which is why I am switching to akly. My Typhoon consists of a standard Typhoon with a RU2800 filter which is about 50% larger than the standard filter. I also removed the snorkle and extended the heat shield to the headlights and sealed up the whole thing with aluminum duct tape. I also re-routed the coolant lines under the intake tube so they are not laying ontop of the filter. With the standard filter there is really no need to tune the intake calibration but with the larger RU200 filter I needed to increase the MAF a bit up to about 4 volts. You will actually get closer to exact fuel targets by leaving the intake calibration alone but I adjusted mine a bit and reduced my injector scale a tiny bit to get the afr targets closer. My advice for your map is to reduce the boost at the lower rpms' and have a smoother target boost curve. I wouldn't try running 20psi daily driving, and you will probably have better results running 19psi around 4k 18 around 5k and 15.5 at redline and increasing you timing a bit more. If you would like you can send me your map and I can make some tweaks to it and you can try it out and see if you like it better. I had better results with less boost and more agressive timing.

TurboQueef · 07-24-2006, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystal_Imprezav

Yup 93 octance with crap 10% ethanol in it. I can actually get .5*-1* more timing with standard gas from Shell or Chevron buts its getting harder and harder to find normal gasoline around here which is why I am switching to akly. My Typhoon consists of a standard Typhoon with a RU2800 filter which is about 50% larger than the standard filter. I also removed the snorkle and extended the heat shield to the headlights and sealed up the whole thing with aluminum duct tape. I also re-routed the coolant lines under the intake tube so they are not laying ontop of the filter. With the standard filter there is really no need to tune the intake calibration but with the larger RU200 filter I needed to increase the MAF a bit up to about 4 volts. You will actually get closer to exact fuel targets by leaving the intake calibration alone but I adjusted mine a bit and reduced my injector scale a tiny bit to get the afr targets closer. My advice for your map is to reduce the boost at the lower rpms' and have a smoother target boost curve. I wouldn't try running 20psi daily driving, and you will probably have better results running 19psi around 4k 18 around 5k and 15.5 at redline and increasing you timing a bit more. If you would like you can send me your map and I can make some tweaks to it and you can try it out and see if you like it better. I had better results with less boost and more agressive timing.

Thanks for the info..

Another thing is worring me.. my IDC's are very low... can you take a look at one of your data-logs and tell me what IDC's you are seeing.

Tnx

crystal_Imprezav · 07-24-2006, 04:29 PM

Heres a short log I made this morning 1st through 3rd gear:

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jchang4/...ning%20Log.xls

C-Nears · 07-24-2006, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystal_Imprezav

Is there anything in your knock learning table when you are connected? Also check to make sure your IAM is at 1. Timing is wacky in this area for me too. Sometimes it will hit 22 like its suppose to around 5k and sometimes it will be 21~21.5 while everything else is ok.

If your IMA is set at 1, change it to .7; Myself and about 6 others just worked through this '05 only problem. It took weeks to get this fixed, because after about a day your car will start to hesitate when cruising at about 50mph in 5th or 5th gear. We worked on the dyno, on the street and just a crap load of trial and error and determined it was only an '05 STi problem. Your car will learn itself to a 1 within a day. Just and FYI, it may sound Crazy but here is the link to the thread.

Who else has slight hesitation after pro-tune?

overdose · 07-25-2006, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystal_Imprezav

Heres a short log I made this morning 1st through 3rd gear:

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jchang4/...ning%20Log.xls

is that straight 93 or w/ alky?

crystal_Imprezav · 07-25-2006, 06:33 AM

Straight, i'll be tuning alky this weekend. C-nears I have been a part of the that thread awhile. My car doesn't exhibit the hesitation that you guys were talking about. The crop in timing .5 degrees is on and off so I am not too worried about it. I would rather keep my IAM at 1 b/c I always want my car running optimal timing b/c it is tuned that way. If I was seeing the hesitation like you guys were I may try to switch it but as of right now my car is running in top shape.

WolfPlayer · 07-25-2006, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystal_Imprezav

Straight, i'll be tuning alky this weekend. C-nears I have been a part of the that thread awhile. My car doesn't exhibit the hesitation that you guys were talking about. The crop in timing .5 degrees is on and off so I am not too worried about it. I would rather keep my IAM at 1 b/c I always want my car running optimal timing b/c it is tuned that way. If I was seeing the hesitation like you guys were I may try to switch it but as of right now my car is running in top shape.

Exactly. Same here. 1.0 IAM on my '05 base flash with no hesitation problems.

t

07-24-2006, 10:05 AM	#4
crystal_Imprezav Spec C Club Car: Slow 05 STi Fav Mod: Loping Idle Location: Chewy's Garage Posts: 1,878 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (12)	~11.1-3 starting at about 3k to redline. Boost I am running 18psi by 3k 19psi by 4k around 5k I am either still at 19 or just starting to taper into 18. I'm running 18* of advance by around 3k and 30* at redline. Car is happy and the dyno likes it too. It never pulls any timing and is rock solid at WOT. True about the knock learning though it may just be overall. I've never logged any knock learning and seen it with the pulled timing on the log. Edit after looking at the spreadsheet. Try setting all your DA to 9 or 8 (like the previous DA's before you went to 6) for your higher loads and adjusting you PI table to the desired calculated advance. This way in you log you can see if the DA is not 8 or 9 like you set it too then you know its pulling timing. If not then you know you need to add more timing into the PI table. Last edited by crystal_Imprezav : 07-24-2006 at 10:11 AM.*

07-24-2006, 07:50 AM	#2
crystal_Imprezav Spec C Club Car: Slow 05 STi Fav Mod: Loping Idle Location: Chewy's Garage Posts: 1,878 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (12)	Is there anything in your knock learning table when you are connected? Also check to make sure your IAM is at 1. Timing is wacky in this area for me too. Sometimes it will hit 22 like its suppose to around 5k and sometimes it will be 21~21.5 while everything else is ok.

07-24-2006, 10:11 AM	#5
TurboQueef Silver Member Car: 2005 STI Fav Mod: Shawn's brain Location: Southwest Michigan Posts: 413 Join Date: Aug 2004 Trader Rating: (0)	All on 93 octane? Also, I see you have a "custom" K&N intake... what did you do to it? I am about to place my order for a short ram Typhoon Thanks again for all the updates... jb

07-24-2006, 04:11 PM	#6
crystal_Imprezav Spec C Club Car: Slow 05 STi Fav Mod: Loping Idle Location: Chewy's Garage Posts: 1,878 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (12)	Yup 93 octance with crap 10% ethanol in it. I can actually get .5-1 more timing with standard gas from Shell or Chevron buts its getting harder and harder to find normal gasoline around here which is why I am switching to akly. My Typhoon consists of a standard Typhoon with a RU2800 filter which is about 50% larger than the standard filter. I also removed the snorkle and extended the heat shield to the headlights and sealed up the whole thing with aluminum duct tape. I also re-routed the coolant lines under the intake tube so they are not laying ontop of the filter. With the standard filter there is really no need to tune the intake calibration but with the larger RU200 filter I needed to increase the MAF a bit up to about 4 volts. You will actually get closer to exact fuel targets by leaving the intake calibration alone but I adjusted mine a bit and reduced my injector scale a tiny bit to get the afr targets closer. My advice for your map is to reduce the boost at the lower rpms' and have a smoother target boost curve. I wouldn't try running 20psi daily driving, and you will probably have better results running 19psi around 4k 18 around 5k and 15.5 at redline and increasing you timing a bit more. If you would like you can send me your map and I can make some tweaks to it and you can try it out and see if you like it better. I had better results with less boost and more agressive timing.

07-24-2006, 04:29 PM	#8
crystal_Imprezav Spec C Club Car: Slow 05 STi Fav Mod: Loping Idle Location: Chewy's Garage Posts: 1,878 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (12)	Heres a short log I made this morning 1st through 3rd gear: http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jchang4/...ning%20Log.xls

07-25-2006, 06:33 AM	#11
crystal_Imprezav Spec C Club Car: Slow 05 STi Fav Mod: Loping Idle Location: Chewy's Garage Posts: 1,878 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (12)	Straight, i'll be tuning alky this weekend. C-nears I have been a part of the that thread awhile. My car doesn't exhibit the hesitation that you guys were talking about. The crop in timing .5 degrees is on and off so I am not too worried about it. I would rather keep my IAM at 1 b/c I always want my car running optimal timing b/c it is tuned that way. If I was seeing the hesitation like you guys were I may try to switch it but as of right now my car is running in top shape.