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Old 08-29-2005, 05:27 PM   #31
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Christian, I understand everything that you said. I thought I read from Sports and Compact Cars that increasing AFR means less oxygen and thus lowering the amount of fire per ignition (well, to a certain extent)............. which by theory lower the EGT. Sorry I am just a Noob and I am learning hard..........


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Old 08-29-2005, 06:41 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the blue thing
Christian, I understand everything that you said. I thought I read from Sports and Compact Cars that increasing AFR means less oxygen and thus lowering the amount of fire per ignition (well, to a certain extent)............. which by theory lower the EGT. Sorry I am just a Noob and I am learning hard..........
You are correct if you take into account that you have enough ignition advance for that particular RPM and load, etc. I also noted "oxygen content of the combustion gases" as a major factor as well. This just a simplified version of another perspective. I just wanted to counter the whole dump-in-fuel-to-lower-EGTs solution because I have noticed that most people are running boost beyond the efficiency range of their turbo and they should look at the big picture.
Last edited by Christian. : 08-29-2005 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 08-29-2005, 07:55 PM   #33
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oic, if I understand it correctly AFR behaves as following (assuming if ignition advance is right):

1) too lean = high EGT
2)right fuel = lower EGT (around 1500-1600F at topend?)
3) too rich = high EGT

now I understand why some members suggested leaning it to 11.5:1 at topend!!! So what I typically see on the datalog if everything is working right? when will I know if I have the right amount of fuel? (I know this one is a stupid question, and I know some of you will say "you will get the right AFR just before the engine knocks")

As what Daemon noted, my ignition advance is kind of strange. I will reset the ECU and reload the stock stage 2 map shortly. What else could be wrong it ignition timing doesn't come back after the reset? what can I do to bring it back up?
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Old 08-29-2005, 08:03 PM   #34
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Which AFR is best all depends on what fuel you are using...and several other variables. On CA 91 octane the A/F ratio is around high 10s by peak torque and mid 10s by redline, all at lower boost levels to keep cylinder pressure down. One the East coast 93 or 94 octane I have seen as lean as mid-to-low 12s at peak torque and mid 11s by redline. It all depends. It would be best if you posted a datalog of your vehicle for us to analyze.
Last edited by Christian. : 08-30-2005 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 08-29-2005, 08:19 PM   #35
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thanks Christian, all my previous datalog post are useless because I was going in a wrong direction. I am using 94 fuel here, so I will get it roughly dialed in and post my log ASAP. Thanks everyone
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Old 08-30-2005, 07:37 AM   #36
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My guess is that you need more ignition advance, for the various RPM and load points your vehicle is seeing. I would allow some more authority in the Dynamic Advance table...let the ECU tell you where you do not have enough ignition advance in the Primary Ignition table. While you are tuning I would continue to re-set the ECU every couple of runs just to make sure the vehicle is not in any High Detonation Fuel maps (keep an eye on DAM) and to clear our your permanent Ignition Correction memory. I will break down how Dynamic Advance works...

Dynamic Advance Multiplier (DAM) is a measurement of how happy the ECU is:
WRX is rated from 0 to 16, measured in increments of 1.
STi, Forester, & Legacy are rated from 0 to 1.0, measured in increments of .05.

The ECU is constantly listening to the motor through the knock sensor. If the ECU does not hear too much engine noise for that given RPM and load point, then it will allow the DAM to grow. If too much noise is heard, then the DAM will move down or stay steady...depending on how much excessive noise is heard. It will stay constant on some poorer gases or if you have tuned close to threshold.

When you reset the ECU the DAM will be reset to whatever is dictated in the software through the Dynamic Advance Multiplier table. The ECU will use the ignition advance value in the Primary Ignition table's cell, according to the RPM and load point it is in. The ECU will then reference the DAM, if the DAM for an STi is .8, then the STi ECU will use the timing value in the Primary Ignition table (for that load and RPM point) and add 80% (.8 divided by 1.0) of the value in the DA table (for the same load and RPM point) as the total ignition timing.

Total ignition timing = Primary Ignition table value + (DAM percentage * DA table value)

Make sense?

To tune timing I usually tune boost first, then fuel, then I allow much more authority in the DA A table (if it is a Realtime table) so that the ECU will show me if the motor wants more ignition timing. If it does then the DA value will be higher in the datalog, as well as total ignition timing. This would indicate to me that the value in the Primary Ignition table is not aggressive enough. Be cautious when tuning timing. If the DA is recorded as 12 degrees, that does not mean that you can add 12 degrees more ignition advance to the Primary Ignition table for that particular load and RPM cell. I would add about 3-5 degrees for that point. Run the car again, then look at the datalog for DA at that load and RPM point and it should have gone down to 4 to 7. Make sense?

I would be satisfied if while at WOT for several runs, hot ones even, the DA is a positive value across the RPM range and the ignition is a smooth predictable curve. This is not the only way to tune, just another perspective. Hope this helps.
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Old 09-01-2005, 09:47 PM   #37
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Christian, I did what you suggested, here is what I have done:fficeffice" /><O></O>

<O></O>

1)increased Dyn advance and smooth out the value<O></O>

2)increased boost target to 18.5 mid range and 15 at redline<O></O>

3)nothing else was touched<O></O>

DAM was at 1 the whole time and there was no knock....... is EGT still kind of high?

<O></O>

Please help me and review the log
<O></O>
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BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>70.2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>12.1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>834</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>16.2</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>8.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>4854</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>24.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>18.43</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>100</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>43</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>71.37</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>11.9</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>837</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>15.8</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>8.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>4854</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>24.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>18.43</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>100</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>43</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>71.37</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>12.1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>846</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>16.2</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2.48</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5099</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>21</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>18.18</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>100</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>47</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>72.94</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>12.2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>859</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>16.1</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>4</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2.45</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5288</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>20</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>17.92</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>100</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>47</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>74.12</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>12.2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>870</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>15.5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>3.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2.41</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5498</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>20</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>17.41</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>100</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>51</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>74.9</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>12.2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>878</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>15.2</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2.33</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5713</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>19.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>17.15</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>100</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>51</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>75.69</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>12.2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>888</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>14.6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>3</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2.27</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5860</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>20.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>16.9</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>100</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>51</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>75.29</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>12.2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>894</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>13.9</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>3</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2.27</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5860</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>20.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>16.9</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>100</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>51</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>75.29</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>12.1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>900</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>14.2</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; 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BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>56</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>75.69</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>12</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>906</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>13.6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; 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Old 09-02-2005, 05:35 AM   #38
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Looks like you have room to run more timing, and it does look like the small changes you made had a positive affect on EGTs (lowering them).

Someone may also want to comment on your AFRs as well..

In addition, you may have set your targets to 18.5, but, you need to work in your WGDC tables to acheive this target, since you're not even close to this in the logs.

My opinion though, until you get your EGTs under control, don't go shooting for 18.5 PSI...


Again, newb here, so, take everything with a large grain of salt
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Old 09-02-2005, 06:27 AM   #39
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I'm a noob myself when it comes to tuning, but I always keep these few points when tuning my car:

-. I'd want my car to run around 10.5 - 11 during peak boost and leans out to 11.5 as the boost tapers down.

-. my ignition timing is as advance as 23 at 6000rpm and the EGT would sit around 820C

-. I'd keep my EGT around 800-820C for street use, because after long pulls on the track (about a 30-min run sometimes I'd see 850C). When stock, I would peak at 850C on ocasional pulls

I'm running 94 non-blended gas btw
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Old 09-02-2005, 07:26 AM   #40
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AFR is way too lean. Fix that ASAP. 12:1 is too lean.

EGT is high at 1670F. Richen it up to at least 11.5:1. I'd probably go richer though.

Your boost is low for what you have specified. Raise the WGDC 'high' map so that you can reach your target boost.

t
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Old 09-02-2005, 07:27 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drfrink24
In addition, you may have set your targets to 18.5, but, you need to work in your WGDC tables to acheive this target, since you're not even close to this in the logs. My opinion though, until you get your EGTs under control, don't go shooting for 18.5 PSI...
I completely agree. FYI, a short burst from 4K to 6K is too little information for me to use. Try to make a pull from 2000 RPMs to close to redline. The little of what I can see your motor is not happy around 5713 RPM where total ignition timing goes down then back up. Generally speaking, a good ignition curvce starts at a higher value at low RPM when the motor is not under heavy load (full boost) then the ignition curve will drop down to its lowest point by peak torque, then slowly increase to low 20s or 30s by redline (THIS IS ALL GOING TO DEPEND ON SEVERAL VARIABLES such as boost, gasoline quality, mechanical effiencies of I/C, turbo, etc. IE cylinder pressure). You will need to continue to advance ignition timing as RPM goes up past peak torque becuase the piston speed increased with RPM, thus you need to start the burn earlier. Make sense?

Just start with a standard stage2 Realtime map so I know exactly what you are looking at. Thanks.

I highly suggest you taper A/F down as RPM increases in other words start at 11.5 to 12.5 at peak torque, then taper down to 10.8 to 11.5 by redline. I am not a fan of tuning your A/F curve to boost...that just does not make sense to me. That style of tuning is not wrong...just different than my style. Please datalog engine coolant temperature as well so I can go over some of my A/F tuning theory.

I can also see that your A/F leans out with RPM, I would not run the car hard if you see those conditions. That is not safe IMO. Please respond and we can go from there. I would be happy to mofidy a map for you based on what I see in your datalogs just as a 1 time experiment. Let me know if you are interested? I would need to know more about your vehicle and the fuel you are running so please include those variables.

Take care,
Christian.
Last edited by Christian. : 09-02-2005 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 09-02-2005, 08:36 AM   #42
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Christian, thank you very much for your help, it is great that you are willing to offer me your help (Wolf, it doesn't mean that I have forgotten you fantastic write up about engine tuning). my set up are as followering:

Vibrant 3" exhaust
Ultimate Racing catted downpipe
Street Tuner with rescaled stage 2 map

the car runs on 94 octane fuel and nothing else
since I am only a regular member and I cann't post the complete log with realtime map, can I e-mail you all the info?
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Old 09-02-2005, 09:22 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by the blue thing
can I e-mail you all the info?
Yes, but only you...I cannot bench tune nor analyze data for other people. My employer would not like that. The point of the various classes we hold across the U.S. is to educate people about data analysis and tuning so that they are more capable of making better decisions. This is a one time experiment which we (Cobb Tuning & myself) cannot be held liable for consequential damages. I want to scare you with the reality of the possible mechanical consequences. I would much prefer to be on the dyno with your vehicle in person...but then that would not be an experiment. Let me know if you are comfortable with this?

Take care,
Christian.
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:49 AM   #44
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yes Christian, I am ready!! I understand there will be serious damages to the engine if I don't tune it right (I heard exhaust values start to melt around 950C). It is appriciated that you can make it an exception for me! Just to make sure that I get the most accurate data captured, I will flash the ECU with a standard stage 2 and log the data. Then, I will flash the ECU with my modified map and log the data. I just wanted to show you both sides of the extreme before and after the map changes. Living in Canada very often makes me feel that I am behind of everything. I would love to go to Cobb tuning 101.... but who knows when they will be in Canada. I tried to seek for help, but most of the guys here uses Ecutek. Once I flash my car with you map, I will hit the dyno and post the plot to complete the experience.

I will do a 1-3 gear run for both maps from 2000-6500 and I will email you the info, Thanks once again.

Please give me a couple of days to get everything ready as cops are everywhere in Toronto when the weather is good. I really need to do it at night
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Old 09-13-2005, 04:24 PM   #45
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Hello every one, I have been silent for several days as I was busy playing with the custom map to lower the EGT. EGT is getting better but still very high, I am able to team it to 920C. I took the car to the garage today and my mechanic said the EGT is not right. I am at around 450C at idle according to the Zeitronix reading, the funny thing is………. It only shows as 200C according to his heat gun measuring at the exact same spot. So who is right? What is the typical EGT at idle? If EGT is off, than AFR could be wrong too (even it reads 14.7 at idle). I e-mailed Zeitronix about the possible calibration problem with their product and they are giving me the typical run around. I will find ways to prove it to them. If their products are not accurate…….than my issues are non-issues and I could have been running the correct AFR and EGT all along without even knowing.


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