[lester]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

I have 2 questions. Did you break the motor? Have you driven a car with "only" 400whp?

If the answer to these is "No", I really think we can save you a LOT of money because you can do that with a bone stock block, no problemo. But 500whp, on a tough dyno, on pump? Ain't gonna happen. The block isn't the problem, it's displacement, and a measly few extra cu.in. isn't enough.

my current stock block is in good condition. i just got some money laying around and thought why not? but saving money is always good. that's why i'm postin on here to get other's opinions. i'm still gettin a built motor, but the route i go, well that depends

Originally Posted by mxpop

Back to this part of the OP, why is it so important to use pump gas after you are so willing to do the work/expense of building a motor with virtually every aspect modified or changed?

Race gas is really easy to come by and a 450whp STI is not a likely long distance commuter or cross country car so you wont likely be filling up anywhere far away on a regular basis. If you do need gas far from home, you can simply click over to a milder map that will accomodate your drive home. A tank of gas should last a minimum of 200 miles for a DD street car and then you can refill with race gas at home.

I just dont understand why people are so willing to double the cost of their car with mods but arent willing to increase their fuel budget and effort.

I know for a fact that VP fuels will sell race gas in 55 gallon cans that you can have at home in your garage. 109 unleaded is about $7 a gallon including the drum itself and will give you a lot of power and great tuning potential. They have great leaded gas too if you go that route. If they wont deliver to your residence, then you can have an auto shop or motorcycle shop get it for you and even supply a pump.

"I want an engine that has minimal lag but has high revving capabilities and hit around 450whp on pump all the while maintaining good reliability. This car will be daily driven" Over 200chp per liter with low end torque, quik response, and high revs is a lot to ask for out of a 2.5 liter 4-cylinder motor, esp when you limit your fuel diet.

i'll be filling up off of pump more often then not and...well i cant' have a 55gal drum of race fuel in the barracks lol. i just don't like having to put forth that extra effort to get race fuel.(call me lazy). the power is AWESOME off of race gas but not too impressive when considering it is RACE gas. getting great power off of pump is more impressive to me. it seems now that 275+whp and wtq above stock is not so attainable on pump. i'm not too concerned about the numbers as long as i can get close to those gains as i can.

how about 225+whp/wtq above stock(lets say the dyno reads a stock sti as 220whp)? is that attainable on pump without pushing my usable powerband too much towards the top end? i'd still like to keep the turbo lag down as much as possible.

i'm beginning to realize that i may have to compromise somewhere, but i still have time to do some more research and get more opinions.

thx for the opinions guys. keep 'em comin

[lester]

Originally Posted by crystal_Imprezav

1) Skip the time looking over stroked motors. No point, none at all. Through everything I have seen, it will not make more power or spool faster. It will only run rougher, way rougher, and be more likely to break being that our motors really are not made for it. I PERSONALLY would NOT trust ANY builder unless I was there to watch ALL the R&D on a stroker and ran all the calcs to double check. This isn't to mention I seriously doubt any commercial tuner in the country has the brains to tune it (maybe 2-3 I would recommend). Like I told you when we spoke... If its your DD please move on from the stroker idea.

2) If its your DD, don't sleeve it. IMO sleeves are not made to be run on a DD car. Chances are, if your not running 500awhp on a DD (or running n2o), you dont need it. I think many builders will agree here with me.

3) If your looking for big power on a DD with no lag, your only option pretty much is to go with a high compression motor. However please be aware of the draw backs. Be aware that it will take WAY more than 6 hours to tune the car. While most tuners are only going to mess with the WOT tune, I can GUARANTEE you the DD and part throttle tune is just as important. The stock part throttle timing WILL BLOW THE MOTOR UP. Cams & a valvetrain/porting are a must. They complement the HC which is well worth the costs. Again, I can't stress enough how important the tune is. Be prepared to pay the costs to tune it. Also be aware that one bad tank of gas and you can say bye-bye to a head gasket or some spun rod bearings.

4) Please also DO A LOT of RESEARCH on high compression motors. There is way more involved than just the longblock. For example: plugs, ignition, quench, clearances, just to name a few. Also consider that FMIC piping has a lot to do with that extra bit of lag that blows. Also consider the fact that HC motor run way hotter than a lower compression motor. The tune, parts, cylinder pressures, intake manifold, fuel rails, headers, and etc. are all going to play a HUGE part in the success of the setup. Just throwing a stock setup into that longblock will guarantee 1700* egt easy with a decent tune and above 1k* just cruising.

Just to name a few thoughts. I could keep going on and on and on. Flycaster, Jeremy, and Bruce's turn!

in response to #1, you just mentioned stroked. what about a bored only motor? that would be helpful to spool because of less travel/friction of the piston wouldn't it? and that would still be able to rev pretty high because of the stock stroke right? i'm no motor builder but my research thus far points to this. but im thinkin that the extra work involved with boring or stroking may not be worth it concerning perfomance on an EJ motor. maybe if it was a bigger motor it would make a bigger difference. oh well i am going to keep researching.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...9/ai_n15614621

is a good read about bore vs. stroke

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke_ratio

another good read

[STimo]

IMO you're asking for too much. Plus your stocker will last for a long time, wharts the rush to get a built motor?? I've been running ~400whp for 15K miles now without a problem (knock in wood) and this my DD that i have trcked and drive hard occasionally.. IMO dont fix something that isnt broken, all the mies you get on the stock motor are free miles, so enjoy and have the built block istting in your garage for when it does let go.. You can easily attain 400whp on pump gas, IMO you should go for a ride in a 400whp STI before you say you "need" 450+whp on pump, a 400whp car will run a high 11, IMO on pump gas that is PLENTY fast, i ran a 12.2 my FIRST run with the new setup in 95 degree heat and a ~40mph headwind.. Trust me 400whp is plenty fast, alot faster than you might think.. Good luck with your build but IMO you need to compromise..

[crystal_Imprezav]

Unless your going to buy a brand new block, you most likely going to need to bore the block to 100mm overbore. Those small numbers arent going to do much if anything for 'power'. Its more like getting some fresh walls and a good hone to match new pistons. IIRC you cant go over 102 and even at that level, its not going to provide much more 'power'.

[CrawfordPerformance.com]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

I have 2 questions. Did you break the motor? Have you driven a car with "only" 400whp?

If the answer to these is "No", I really think we can save you a LOT of money because you can do that with a bone stock block, no problemo. But 500whp, on a tough dyno, on pump? Ain't gonna happen. The block isn't the problem, it's displacement, and a measly few extra cu.in. isn't enough.

Well said

Before you discount a stroker motor, stop by our shop and take one for a test drive. Then you can make an educated decision.

One of our stroker motors ran 9.5 at 150 in the quarter mile in a full weight STI. This is also the motor of choice for our Time Attack car that has set five track records in the last year.

[CrawfordPerformance.com]

Originally Posted by lester

thanks

somebody told me you guys are almost about done with the R&D process with the 2.9l. and you guys have been researchin it for the last few yrs. hope you guys finish it soon enough

what are the prices of the blocks on your site? i don't see any posted costs.

the R3 block you're carrying, is it a bigger bore? i noticed the 79mm crankshaft.

how high does your S5 block rev with the 84mm stroke?

You are more than welcome.

The 2.9 is an asume motor but we are having oil pressure issues with it

As for the cost on our products, please contact your local dealer or give our Sales line a call.

Yes, the R3 is a big bore motor with the 79mm crank.

Our stroker motors rev past 8K without any issues, we are talking about an 84mm stroke compared to a 95mm+ Honda motor that revs to 9500.

Thanks for asking.

[Flycaster]

OK, your stock block is still intact and running well. And, I think by now you're getting the point that the problem isn't the "build", it's cubic inches and fuel.

Tell you what. How's about if you tell us what your current mods are, what power you currently have, and then letting some of the smart guys here make a few cost-effective suggestions as to some power mods. As long as you're willing to live with "only" 400-425whp, your choices really open up, and you can get away with your wallet more or less intact.

If it were me, I'd throw a gt30 or gt35 kit on it with the supporting mods, conservatively tune it up to the 20-21 psi zipcode, drive the bujeesus out of it, then sell it once I got tired of it. How's that for simple?

BTW, Quirt, I'm not discounting your bigger motors at all...they just wouldn't be pump gas motors for me. If ya got a race horse, run the damn thing.

[twigg107]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

. If ya got a race horse, run the damn thing.

Best quote Ive ever heard!!!!

[lester]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

OK, your stock block is still intact and running well. And, I think by now you're getting the point that the problem isn't the "build", it's cubic inches and fuel.

Tell you what. How's about if you tell us what your current mods are, what power you currently have, and then letting some of the smart guys here make a few cost-effective suggestions as to some power mods. As long as you're willing to live with "only" 400-425whp, your choices really open up, and you can get away with your wallet more or less intact.

If it were me, I'd throw a gt30 or gt35 kit on it with the supporting mods, conservatively tune it up to the 20-21 psi zipcode, drive the bujeesus out of it, then sell it once I got tired of it. How's that for simple?

BTW, Quirt, I'm not discounting your bigger motors at all...they just wouldn't be pump gas motors for me. If ya got a race horse, run the damn thing.

Ok maybe what i'm shooting for is slightly out of reach but i will try to get as close as i can to my goals as i can.

I know that all motors will eventually break. But i think it is agreeable that a built block will definitely hold higher hp more reliably than a stock block. that being said, a stock block will break sooner than a built block at the same hp levels with the same type of tune. i don't want acquire higher hp levels w/a stock block waiting around for the time when it will go. the built block will eventually go too, but it would have better potential for holding that power for longer. and i'd sleep better at night knowing that

I'd rather have a built and/or bored/stroked motor in my car now that will be better suited for higher hp applications than my stock block. i can then overhaul the stocker and then have it as a spare motor.

Yeah I could run around with the stock motor at high hp and then have a built block waiting, but I'd rather have it the other way around. that is just a personal preference

I got a 20g setup stock TMIC 273whp 278wtq harman motive mustang dyno. i just have the money to go for what i want....i never said i needed it.

thx for the input

[mxpop]

L,

Have Harman add race gas and meth for close to 400whp, even on their new Mustang dyno.

[STimo]

Originally Posted by lester

Ok maybe what i'm shooting for is slightly out of reach but i will try to get as close as i can to my goals as i can.

I know that all motors will eventually break. But i think it is agreeable that a built block will definitely hold higher hp more reliably than a stock block. that being said, a stock block will break sooner than a built block at the same hp levels with the same type of tune. i don't want acquire higher hp levels w/a stock block waiting around for the time when it will go. the built block will eventually go too, but it would have better potential for holding that power for longer. and i'd sleep better at night knowing that

I'd rather have a built and/or bored/stroked motor in my car now that will be better suited for higher hp applications than my stock block. i can then overhaul the stocker and then have it as a spare motor.

Yeah I could run around with the stock motor at high hp and then have a built block waiting, but I'd rather have it the other way around. that is just a personal preference

I got a 20g setup stock TMIC 273whp 278wtq harman motive mustang dyno. i just have the money to go for what i want....i never said i needed it.

thx for the input

That's also a GREAT qway to go, and is what i would do if i were in your shoes, i just thought you were trying to do this on a budget for some reason.. WEll yeah, then order a built shortblock from a company of your choosing (i prefer cosworth or Axis, IMO the 2 best for subby motors) take the stocker out now and have that motor built and sitting in the garage just incase the other motor fails, you have another built motor waiting to go righht in.. Wish i had the cash to do that tho

[Flycaster]

Originally Posted by lester

But i think it is agreeable that a built block will definitely hold higher hp more reliably than a stock block. that being said, a stock block will break sooner than a built block at the same hp levels with the same type of tune...

I realize that's intutively right, but in practice it is not. A built block will certainly take more abuse (ie, BIG power and/or a marginal tune) than a stock block (all we're really talking about here are the pistons, frankly), but I've seen zero evidence of any difference in longevity up to 400-425whp, provided the tune is good. If the timing at peak torque isn't pushed too hard, the AFR's are nice and safe, and all the boost tubes and vac lines stay tight, the stock lower end is definitely tough enough to handle 400+whp. And, there are LOTS of stock engined cars here and on NASIOC that back this up, many with 10's of thousands of miles at that power level that still have great leakdown numbers.

Having said that, if you want to pull your original motor and store it in the garage, and stick in a built motor and run it until it drops, that's not a bad plan at all if you have the spare coin.

[mxpop]

^^ Excellent point that is often misunderstood. (< white man's "thumbs up" )

Detonation will kill our motors faster than anything else, a built motor with better internals should tolerate this a little better but the actual diff is small, esp when trying to tolerate det. Avoid det, keep a smart tune, and stock motors are safe and reliable up to 400-450whp (poss more ???) even with hard track duty. The piston and bearings become the weak spot with det.

Another killer is RPM and a good crank/rod/pistons/valve-train should handle more revs than stock. The stock motor will do 7500 safely if well managed. I dont see a need to spin the motor over 7500 until you are entering the 600whp zone-of-no-return.... Turbo motors dont need the RPMs that a NA motor needs. The turbo days in F1 saw motors spinning slower then before/after the turbo era and they made a claimed 1700 hp at one point!

I have found the head gasket to be a weak link when pushed hard but there are reasonable ways to solve this too.

4th point is obvious. You need to treat your motor with respect (warm up/cool off), watch your gauges, and be a maintenance freak. And above all, dont let you buddies drive it.....

[Flycaster]

Originally Posted by mxpop

...The piston and bearings become the weak spot with det...

Yep, a marginal tune, a slight problem, and (if stock) you break a piston or (if built) the forged pistons hold and you pound the bearings, eventually spinning one. Pick your poison...they are both ugly events, not to mention terminal. The simple truth is, I've read about as many built engines that broke as stock ones, and it sure seems like detonation was the culprit in the vast majority of the cases - a built motor will not save you from a bad tune.

[mxpop]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

a built motor will not save you from a bad tune.

Amen to that brutha!


No motor ($ at any price $) will tolerate a bad tune, bad maintenance, bad gas, foolish/ignorant abuse, clown mechanics, etc.