our new element tuning motor - back to basics (what we're not doing and why)

***Neanderthal Racing*** · 06-22-2008, 01:10 PM

I know it has been painful for many people to watch the succession of motor disasters we have had with my cutn edg project. you can only imagine how painful it looks from my view (isfh).

as most people on iwsti know by now, we have just experienced our second catastrophic motor failure. the only think wrong with the project has been the aftermarket power plants. this time we're going to keep it simple.

a brief look back (without recriminations, por favor):

engine #1 - a 2.6L "stroker" that was doomed before it left the factory by undersized pistons. autopsy revealed a crank with the rod journals undercut to get the stroke. the crank was so suspect that the second builder refused to reuse it. this engine is no longer available, which says something.

lesson learned:
having a "stroker" sounds manly but maybe there's a reason why subaru settled on the final bore and stroke of our motor.

engine #2 - a 2.6L "overbore" that was a "one-off" motor. another first, it came sleeved with an oem crank that was supposed to be cross drilled to facilitate oiling at the rod journal bearings. As the story goes; after a number of engine failures on various aftermarket blocks several years ago and attributed to under lubrication, almost all the manufacturers began cross drilling, causing a second problem - the increase in volume that resulted outpaced the subaru pump's ability to maintain pressure. a number of failures started occurring from inadequate oil pressure, proving the point that if you change one element upstream, you better be certain that the other elements downstream aren't adversely effected, too. we thought our own oil pressure issue was likely caused by the cross drilled crank. nope.

when steve tore this motor down, he found the oil pressure issue was not caused by a cross-drilled crank because it (curiously) did not have one as it was supposed to. steve determined that the oil pressure issue was likely caused when the rod journal bearings on #4 gave way. That is not to say, there is not an inherent problem with cross drilled cranks because there is in our opinion. It was just not a problem with this motor.

we also had a head gasket failure. it was an oem gasket that was machined to accommodate the overbore. also, the head bolts were both unevenly and inadequately torqued down. several head bolts (arp head fasteners) were only finger tight.

sleeved motors have not been without problems. many sleeves have slipped on other people’s motors. ours has some kind of deformity of one of the sleeve liners. Sleeves also have a problem of retaining more heat. we had a major cooling issue under track conditions which may or may not be related. It’s too hard to tell with all the other problems and defects this motor had.

lesson learned:
having a sleeved "overbore" may sound sexy but there's a reason why subaru settled on the final bore and stroke and block design.

so here is what we are doing with the new element tuning motor and, i must say, this plan is being driven entirely by phil. i deserve absolutely no credit at all, other than for listening to him and reaching the same conclusions. there are still some details we have not decided upon yet, but i will bring them to you as we settle them.

stock block - no sleeves: this is probably going to be a track dedicated car in a year or two when the toll and paranoia of daily driving this thing gets to me or we get kicked off the street by the long arm of the law, whichever comes first. the heat retention penalty of sleeves outweighs their benefit in a time attack car. we will be counting on the stock block to handle the 35 psi and the 75 shot this thing will be subjected to at the strip and phil swears it can.
stock crank: believe me, i argued about getting a high end billet crank. phil says, save the cash. the stock crank is the way to go.
head gasket: ditto.
element tuning rods, race bearings
cp pistons.
heads: trey cobb kicked in the last remaining set of cobb cnc machined and ported heads. they are going to get treated to 1mm over valves and fresh everything else - except for our kelford stg 3 cams which remain in service
edit: one of the heads trey kicked in is unusable. there is a hole where the CNC machine cut through to the water jacket. i have a picture from phil that i may post up later but there really isn't much to see except for a small hole. with a little massaging and cleanup, the stock heads are still completely serviceable. phil will be taking them to a local machine shop.
we have a new 08 sti pump, which outflows or equals anything else the aftermarket has come out with. there is a possibility we will add an external oil pump or a full dry sump system next year.
timing belt: i always use an sti kevlar belt. this motor has less than 5k on it, so we will reuse it as long as it is pristine.

phil is going to be establishing the tolerances based on what he's using in his race motor and with any adjustments needed for the n202. steve is actually building it. I’m going to break it in without bringing it back up here. It will mean spending a few days down in the md, va, wv area sight seeing and racking up quality break-in miles before it sees the dyno. If I had to predict, it may see some of the break-in time on the dyno.

i don't expect everyone to agree with all the conclusions we've reached. i am only giving you our reasons why we are doing, what amounts to, a totally back-to-basics shortblock on this ambitious a project.

now all we need is a good motor. is that so much to ask for? lol

**torquemada** · 06-22-2008, 01:22 PM

good luck for the build

neverendingmods · 06-22-2008, 03:05 PM

Interesting to say the least. All of it. Why the guessing on the pistons? You don't have anything mentioned regarding them.
Good luck on the new build and thanks for posting your findings.

***520*** · 06-22-2008, 03:17 PM

nice

CP pistons seem to be a good choice...

***Neanderthal Racing*** · 06-22-2008, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neverendingmods

Interesting to say the least. All of it. Why the guessing on the pistons? You don't have anything mentioned regarding them.

only because this is all based on a quickly evolving situation with lots of twists and turns and with everything else that we had to discuss so far, we haven't discussed piston specifics yet. we have some other specifics to discuss as well, like valves lol.

in other words, i'm sure he knows. i don't (isfh).

neverendingmods · 06-22-2008, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neanderthal Racing

only because this is all based on a quickly evolving situation with lots of twists and turns and with everything else that we had to discuss so far, we haven't discussed piston specifics yet. we have some other specifics to discuss as well, like valves lol.

in other words, i'm sure he knows. i don't (isfh).

Make sure you let us know. Unless Phil and guys wanna do some secret R&D or something you know. Can't imagine that as everything else is out there they found. I've been speaking with some highly known engine builders lately gearing up for my motor build, and each has their own way and specific parts, especially pistons. CP pistons are not CP pistons specifically. They are made spec for them as I'm sure you know Bruce. This was directed toward op.

***Neanderthal Racing*** · 06-22-2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neverendingmods

Make sure you let us know. Unless Phil and guys wanna do some secret R&D or something you know. Can't imagine that as everything else is out there they found. I've been speaking with some highly known engine builders lately gearing up for my motor build, and each has their own way

that's is the main point to the thread. pay close attention to exactly what "their own way" consists of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by neverendingmods

and specific parts, especially pistons. CP pistons are not CP pistons specifically. They are made spec for them as I'm sure you know Bruce. This was directed toward op.

i dunno, 520 is at least as smart as i am. he's one of those gizzas only with less slope to his forehead.
(icmu)

neverendingmods · 06-22-2008, 03:41 PM

^LOL. I'm learning man. I'm a puss. I never go 1st.

***520*** · 06-22-2008, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neanderthal Racing

i dunno, 520 is at least as smart as i am. he's one of those gizzas only with less slope to his forehead.
(icmu)

RFFG · 06-22-2008, 04:08 PM

Thanks for this thread Bruce!!!

And best of luck again on the whole build.

But now I have 2 threads dedicated to your car that I have to follow (isfh)

***Neanderthal Racing*** · 06-22-2008, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RFFG

But now I have 2 threads dedicated to your car that I have to follow

this one will have less drama (isfh)

***JDM-STI*** · 06-22-2008, 05:28 PM

Your new build sounds just like my current build (TopSpeed RR1) and the one that TopSpeed runs very successfully in their fast ass time attack car.
Stock block, 100mm pistons, stock head gaskets, stock crank, lightly P&P heads, 1mm oversized valves, and Cosworth stage 2 cams. High volume oil pump, etc, etc, ect...
I couldn't be happier. I think you will find that going this route will land you a very powerful yet very dependable motor. Good luck and keep us posted as I know that you will.

ninjaboy76 · 06-22-2008, 06:04 PM

Good luck with the new build.

neverendingmods · 06-22-2008, 06:20 PM

IKYDKi JE has redisgned their piston skirts. There should be a few new changes occurring in the piston deptartment. Others will have their changes too following as most use JE for their production.

***Neanderthal Racing*** · 06-22-2008, 06:36 PM

the pistons in the first motor were cp.
the pistons in the second motor were je.
(the piston manufacturers were not the problem with either motor).

06-22-2008, 03:05 PM	#3
neverendingmods Silver Member Car: 06 STi Fav Mod: Buying a beater for DD Location: DE/PA border Posts: 762 Join Date: Nov 2006 Trader Rating: (3)	Re: our new element tuning motor - back to basics (what we're not doing and why) Interesting to say the least. All of it. Why the guessing on the pistons? You don't have anything mentioned regarding them. Good luck on the new build and thanks for posting your findings.

06-22-2008, 03:41 PM	#8
neverendingmods Silver Member Car: 06 STi Fav Mod: Buying a beater for DD Location: DE/PA border Posts: 762 Join Date: Nov 2006 Trader Rating: (3)	Re: our new element tuning motor - back to basics (what we're not doing and why) ^LOL. I'm learning man. I'm a puss. I never go 1st.

06-22-2008, 04:08 PM	#10
RFFG Spec C Club Car: 1998 Impreza GF8 Location: Miami, Fl. Posts: 2,389 Join Date: Aug 2005 Trader Rating: (3)	Re: our new element tuning motor - back to basics (what we're not doing and why) Thanks for this thread Bruce!!! And best of luck again on the whole build. But now I have 2 threads dedicated to your car that I have to follow (isfh) Last edited by RFFG : 06-22-2008 at 04:12 PM.

06-22-2008, 05:28 PM	#12
*JDM-STI* Platinum Member Car: 2005 & 2008 STI Fav Mod: UR 35R and Hydra tune by Scott Siegel :) Location: Columbus, GA Posts: 1,884 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (11)	Re: our new element tuning motor - back to basics (what we're not doing and why) Your new build sounds just like my current build (TopSpeed RR1) and the one that TopSpeed runs very successfully in their fast ass time attack car. Stock block, 100mm pistons, stock head gaskets, stock crank, lightly P&P heads, 1mm oversized valves, and Cosworth stage 2 cams. High volume oil pump, etc, etc, ect... I couldn't be happier. I think you will find that going this route will land you a very powerful yet very dependable motor. Good luck and keep us posted as I know that you will. Last edited by JDM-STI : 06-22-2008 at 06:33 PM.

06-22-2008, 06:04 PM	#13
ninjaboy76 Spec C Club Car: 05 STI, 08 CBR1000RR Fav Mod: None Location: Kansas Posts: 2,385 Join Date: Jun 2004 Trader Rating: (6)	Re: our new element tuning motor - back to basics (what we're not doing and why) Good luck with the new build.

06-22-2008, 01:10 PM	#1
*Neanderthal Racing* GT R US Car: CUTN EDG project Fav Mod: $20. mudflaps from auto zone Location: my cave Posts: 5,831 Join Date: Dec 2003 Trader Rating: (1)	our new element tuning motor - back to basics (what we're not doing and why) I know it has been painful for many people to watch the succession of motor disasters we have had with my cutn edg project. you can only imagine how painful it looks from my view (isfh). as most people on iwsti know by now, we have just experienced our second catastrophic motor failure. the only think wrong with the project has been the aftermarket power plants. this time we're going to keep it simple. a brief look back (without recriminations, por favor): engine #1 - a 2.6L "stroker" that was doomed before it left the factory by undersized pistons. autopsy revealed a crank with the rod journals undercut to get the stroke. the crank was so suspect that the second builder refused to reuse it. this engine is no longer available, which says something. lesson learned: having a "stroker" sounds manly but maybe there's a reason why subaru settled on the final bore and stroke of our motor. engine #2 - a 2.6L "overbore" that was a "one-off" motor. another first, it came sleeved with an oem crank that was supposed to be cross drilled to facilitate oiling at the rod journal bearings. As the story goes; after a number of engine failures on various aftermarket blocks several years ago and attributed to under lubrication, almost all the manufacturers began cross drilling, causing a second problem - the increase in volume that resulted outpaced the subaru pump's ability to maintain pressure. a number of failures started occurring from inadequate oil pressure, proving the point that if you change one element upstream, you better be certain that the other elements downstream aren't adversely effected, too. we thought our own oil pressure issue was likely caused by the cross drilled crank. nope. when steve tore this motor down, he found the oil pressure issue was not caused by a cross-drilled crank because it (curiously) did not have one as it was supposed to. steve determined that the oil pressure issue was likely caused when the rod journal bearings on #4 gave way. That is not to say, there is not an inherent problem with cross drilled cranks because there is in our opinion. It was just not a problem with this motor. we also had a head gasket failure. it was an oem gasket that was machined to accommodate the overbore. also, the head bolts were both unevenly and inadequately torqued down. several head bolts (arp head fasteners) were only finger tight. sleeved motors have not been without problems. many sleeves have slipped on other people’s motors. ours has some kind of deformity of one of the sleeve liners. Sleeves also have a problem of retaining more heat. we had a major cooling issue under track conditions which may or may not be related. It’s too hard to tell with all the other problems and defects this motor had. lesson learned: having a sleeved "overbore" may sound sexy but there's a reason why subaru settled on the final bore and stroke and block design. so here is what we are doing with the new element tuning motor and, i must say, this plan is being driven entirely by phil. i deserve absolutely no credit at all, other than for listening to him and reaching the same conclusions. there are still some details we have not decided upon yet, but i will bring them to you as we settle them. stock block - no sleeves: this is probably going to be a track dedicated car in a year or two when the toll and paranoia of daily driving this thing gets to me or we get kicked off the street by the long arm of the law, whichever comes first. the heat retention penalty of sleeves outweighs their benefit in a time attack car. we will be counting on the stock block to handle the 35 psi and the 75 shot this thing will be subjected to at the strip and phil swears it can. stock crank: believe me, i argued about getting a high end billet crank. phil says, save the cash. the stock crank is the way to go. head gasket: ditto. element tuning rods, race bearings cp pistons. heads: trey cobb kicked in the last remaining set of cobb cnc machined and ported heads. they are going to get treated to 1mm over valves and fresh everything else - except for our kelford stg 3 cams which remain in service edit: one of the heads trey kicked in is unusable. there is a hole where the CNC machine cut through to the water jacket. i have a picture from phil that i may post up later but there really isn't much to see except for a small hole. with a little massaging and cleanup, the stock heads are still completely serviceable. phil will be taking them to a local machine shop. we have a new 08 sti pump, which outflows or equals anything else the aftermarket has come out with. there is a possibility we will add an external oil pump or a full dry sump system next year. timing belt: i always use an sti kevlar belt. this motor has less than 5k on it, so we will reuse it as long as it is pristine. phil is going to be establishing the tolerances based on what he's using in his race motor and with any adjustments needed for the n202. steve is actually building it. I’m going to break it in without bringing it back up here. It will mean spending a few days down in the md, va, wv area sight seeing and racking up quality break-in miles before it sees the dyno. If I had to predict, it may see some of the break-in time on the dyno. i don't expect everyone to agree with all the conclusions we've reached. i am only giving you our reasons why we are doing, what amounts to, a totally back-to-basics shortblock on this ambitious a project. now all we need is a good motor. is that so much to ask for? lol This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad. Last edited by Neanderthal Racing : 06-27-2008 at 08:15 AM.

06-22-2008, 01:22 PM	#2
torquemada Gold Member Car: WRB EDM 06 WRX STI Fav Mod: Aerys 3" Location: Germany Posts: 973 Join Date: Dec 2006 Trader Rating: (0)	Re: our new element tuning motor - back to basics (what we're not doing and why) good luck for the build

06-22-2008, 03:17 PM	#4
*520* STi > EVO... Wait what??? Car: 03 EVO Fav Mod: stock :( Location: Michigan / Saint Louis Posts: 12,396 Join Date: Oct 2005 Trader Rating: (1)	Re: our new element tuning motor - back to basics (what we're not doing and why) nice CP pistons seem to be a good choice...

06-22-2008, 06:20 PM	#14
neverendingmods Silver Member Car: 06 STi Fav Mod: Buying a beater for DD Location: DE/PA border Posts: 762 Join Date: Nov 2006 Trader Rating: (3)	Re: our new element tuning motor - back to basics (what we're not doing and why) IKYDKi JE has redisgned their piston skirts. There should be a few new changes occurring in the piston deptartment. Others will have their changes too following as most use JE for their production.

06-22-2008, 06:36 PM	#15
*Neanderthal Racing* GT R US Car: CUTN EDG project Fav Mod: $20. mudflaps from auto zone Location: my cave Posts: 5,831 Join Date: Dec 2003 Trader Rating: (1)	Re: our new element tuning motor - back to basics (what we're not doing and why) the pistons in the first motor were cp. the pistons in the second motor were je. (the piston manufacturers were not the problem with either motor). This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad. Last edited by Neanderthal Racing : 06-22-2008 at 06:50 PM.