[threader]

I have no respect for the MS3. Mazda 3 yes, MS3 no. How a company like Mazda could miss the opportunity to truly compete on a engineering level and enter into the fray with the EVO & STI. They didn't and put to market a half hearted effort that is hobbled by the laws of physics that no amount of masterful engineering can fix. There is room in this market for an underdog 300hp AWD MS3. Too bad Mazda doesn't have the fight in them. It's not like they don't have the AWD technology cough&^%MS6(*&^Cough.

[freeman]

MS3 would be a great car if it is AWD and 300+ hp.

[jmswinger]

it would be interesting for sure..

[inpuressa]

Originally Posted by RallySportDirect

The MS3 is a very capable car. With TBE, and a re flash its as fast as STi's.
The only complaint I have heard is the car makes to much power to put threw 2WD.

I read somewhere from a famous car engineer that the maximum power you can put in a FWD car for the best performance is 250hp.

[solovus]

Originally Posted by upncummr

Unless of course, I'm confused.

Yes. Sorry, but you are very confused.

- Gary too

[pbm317]

Originally Posted by GilMikalian

Positive number means the B pillar goes PAST the centerline of the seat toward the center console. So a +2 cm would be a point between the centerline of the seat and center console 2 cm from the centerline.

i understand it from you, that was more directed at upn

[speedball3]

Originally Posted by threader

I have no respect for the MS3. Mazda 3 yes, MS3 no. How a company like Mazda could miss the opportunity to truly compete on a engineering level and enter into the fray with the EVO & STI. They didn't and put to market a half hearted effort that is hobbled by the laws of physics that no amount of masterful engineering can fix. There is room in this market for an underdog 300hp AWD MS3. Too bad Mazda doesn't have the fight in them. It's not like they don't have the AWD technology cough&^%MS6(*&^Cough.

I sort of agree with you. The MS6 sold horribly... maybe it didn't handle well enough, maybe it wasn't fast enough, maybe it was too expensive... but it just didn't sell well. The MS3... handles well and is plenty fast and is also really well priced (plus, I think it's selling well, but don't really know...). Sure, if they threw AWD in there for free it'd be one million times better of a car (assuming it handled just as well, if not better). But since they don't give stuff away, would a 27k MS3 be as appealing? Then the jump to an STI would be even less... ~12k to ~7k. That is a significant price difference between the FWD MS3 and the imaginary AWD MS3.

And was the MS3 meant to take on the Evo/STI? As a track machine, it comfortably beats most cars in its price range... GTI, Civic Si, possibly Colbalt SS (turbo'd)... Maybe it's just extra gravy that it can even take on the Evo/STI. And don't dismiss the car just cause it's FWD... take a look at the JDM Civic Type-R. That's a really sweet FWD car that can hold its own against the S2000.

[BMonkey]

The MS3 would be a good option for someone interested in just keeping their car stock, beyond that I see no purpose in comparing up to STI. I recently had an opportunity to drive a co-worker's MS3 and got a decent feel for the car. It's got good power once you're rolling but for me the handling was sub-par. I know the car has tested pretty well in magazines but that says nothing for feel and actual hard driving. If you are just driving the car in a 'spirited' fashion it is good fun and would be all you need to make a daily commute enjoyable. However, this is only in stock form and even with wheel/suspension mods you won't be able to get the chassis to feel as good as a stock STIs. The body in the MS3 isn't nearly as stiff (at least 5000 Nm/deg less I'd say) and the roll center is very pronounced in switchbacks when compared to the STI. If you live somewhere that's textbook civil engineering, the MS3 might be a more practical choice. But for those of us living somewhere with tons of roads that look like a bowl of spaghetti, you're going to be missing out on maximising your driving just to save a buck.

All you gotta do is tell your g/f or wife that she's fat and she'll start starving herself to lose weight. Then you're not having to spend money on food for her and you'll have plenty of money to make those STI payments

[BMonkey]

Originally Posted by speedball3

And was the MS3 meant to take on the Evo/STI? As a track machine, it comfortably beats most cars in its price range... GTI, Civic Si, possibly Colbalt SS (turbo'd)... Maybe it's just extra gravy that it can even take on the Evo/STI. And don't dismiss the car just cause it's FWD... take a look at the JDM Civic Type-R. That's a really sweet FWD car that can hold its own against the S2000.

I just gotta say that this is another case like I stated above with the MS3 and STI. There are a ton of amazing Time Attack S2000s in Japan that will run rings around civics because it is a good chassis to build a fast car off of. However, in stock form I could see the benefit of going with the Type R because the gap at that stock level isn't big... though the jump in cost to the S2000 isnt that much from the Type-R and you can drift it!

[upncummr]

Originally Posted by solovus

Yes. Sorry, but you are very confused.

- Gary too

solovus, GilMikalian, and pbm317:

Thanks for helping to clear away the confusion.

(Since the driver is positioned in front of the seatback, I initally assumed the measurements were from that perspective. The graphic that was provided made it a bit clearer that the measurements were taken from behind the seatback.)

Gary

[Stedenko]

Well, I'm the guy who started the thread and I just laid my deposit down on a 2008 STI. The sales guy is going to try to find a DGM for me, but I'll take black if they can't. I phoned some other dealers in other cities and there's not much around.

So my MS3 cross-shopping days are over. Thanks for all the awesome discussion.

[RPI-STi]

Originally Posted by 06WRCBlueStI

why would they make the ms3 without an awd system? I thought this was supposed to be mazda's answer to the wrx/evo/sti. Having a higher hp fwd car isn't that great imo. From personal exp., you usually get loads of torque steer.

From an aesthetics point of view too, the sti wins.

Weight and cost were the major reasons why they decided against it. An AWD system would have put the car into the high $20k range, possibly even the low $30k. They would have had to develop a AWD system just for this application as the one from the MS6 would not have fit IIRC. That puts it out of the sport compact range and out of the budgets of the people they were targeting with this car.

The target cars for the MS3 (from Mazda's point of view) were the GTI, WRX, Cobalt SS, etc.

[RPI-STi]

Originally Posted by Stedenko

Well, I'm the guy who started the thread and I just laid my deposit down on a 2008 STI. The sales guy is going to try to find a DGM for me, but I'll take black if they can't. I phoned some other dealers in other cities and there's not much around.

So my MS3 cross-shopping days are over. Thanks for all the awesome discussion.

Congrats, you won't be disappointed. And black is a good color

[Stedenko]

Originally Posted by RPI-STi

Congrats, you won't be disappointed. And black is a good color

I like black. My wife hates the gold wheels and I want her to be happy too. Black's my second choice, but I really like it so it's not a hard second choice.

[RPI-STi]

Originally Posted by speedball3

I sort of agree with you. The MS6 sold horribly... maybe it didn't handle well enough, maybe it wasn't fast enough, maybe it was too expensive... but it just didn't sell well. The MS3... handles well and is plenty fast and is also really well priced (plus, I think it's selling well, but don't really know...). Sure, if they threw AWD in there for free it'd be one million times better of a car (assuming it handled just as well, if not better). But since they don't give stuff away, would a 27k MS3 be as appealing? Then the jump to an STI would be even less... ~12k to ~7k. That is a significant price difference between the FWD MS3 and the imaginary AWD MS3.

And was the MS3 meant to take on the Evo/STI? As a track machine, it comfortably beats most cars in its price range... GTI, Civic Si, possibly Colbalt SS (turbo'd)... Maybe it's just extra gravy that it can even take on the Evo/STI. And don't dismiss the car just cause it's FWD... take a look at the JDM Civic Type-R. That's a really sweet FWD car that can hold its own against the S2000.

Plus you have a swath of people dual force feeding Mini Cooper S and taking them to the track. I ran up against a turbo'ed and supercharged Mini last summer @ NHIS. the FWD argument didn't do much when he walked me and a Porsche Cayman around that track with very little straighaway.