[Digitalfiend]

Originally Posted by inpuressa

^^^ I really hope so.

So far, these are the things where ppl have problems with:

1. Paint chipping issue.

This is an unforunate design flaw. I'm sorry but NO paint is going to withstand direct hits from stones and debris from the tires at 100km/h+. Even the old Porsches, which usually have great paint, suffered from this.

It is a valid concern though.

Originally Posted by inpuressa

2. Unknown engine problem that's causing this "stop-sale"

Other than not being able to buy a car, this has affected exactly how many people? So far my count is zero.

Originally Posted by inpuressa

3. Engine whirring noise (related to above?)

My alternator is noisy but I've just come to understand that this motor sounds different than my '05 (and it does have some noticeable differences in parts.)

Originally Posted by inpuressa

4. Brake pad failure

I haven't read anything about this and I'd call BS on most people saying that they can't stop with the stock brakes. OEM pads failing on a track is something entirely different...

Originally Posted by inpuressa

5. Bad factory tune

Yeah this is certainly an issue but guess what? The '07s had this issue as well and it was worse for that model year too.

Originally Posted by inpuressa

feel free to add more

Sure...

For 2004:
- memory steering and overall steering wheel numbness
- brake pad knockback/hub flex
- wheel bearing failures
- early models suffered from detonation
- strut clunk
- 5th gear synchro failures
- AVCS oil filter issue

For 2005:
- same strut clunk as '04
- front struts basically already on the bumpstops
- synchro issues on select gears

For 2006:
- recall due to crushed airbag wiring (or something like that)
- plastic engine mounts were breaking (they went back to the '05 mounts later on)

For 2007:
- horrible factory tune; lots of hesitation, jerking, etc.

The 2008 model certainly has a few issues here and there but no more than any other model year so far. It would have been nice not to have the ECU issues from 2007 carry over to the new model, but other than that, the '08s are generally pretty decent for a first model year.

This stop-sale obviously is a strange anomaly, especially when you consider the lack of failures here.

[bigd]

Thank you! The 08's are getting an awful lot of finger pointing for no reason. Some of the problems encountered by a small percentage of people (legitimate, BS, or not affecting USDM units) are being blown way out of proportion. Yes its a new platform, but that doesn't mean Subaru threw out everything they've learned from previous years.

If something is TRULY wrong or faulty, the dealer will take care of it. Paint chips, expect it. Pad fading/glazing on the track, expect it. Looking for something to go wrong generates paranoia and somehow a problem suddenly does exist. No matter how you look at it, they're still ridiculously complicated passenger cars. If brake pads make horrid noises, replace them. If there's a recall, see if you're affected. If the gas door doesn't open, get it fixed.

The fact that people are deciding to suddenly NOT buy the car they've been waiting for because of a handful of reports of small minor issues here and there is just plain silly and dumbfounds me. If there were serious problems experienced by a very large percentage of owners causing extended periods of down-time, then maybe I'd hold off, but these issues we're seeing are paltry.

Go ahead and wait for the 09's, but I bet they'll have a few bugs and quirks as well. Or spend more and get an Audi or BMW which we all know with 100% certainty have never ever ever had design flaws or quality issues, ever.

Just buy (or drive) the damn car and stop worrying so damn much.

[Mykl]

Well..... the paint chipping thing is pretty serious. That's big money to fix.

At least the wheel bearing and pad knockback crap on the '04's really only affected the autocrossers and track guys. If you are one of those guys, then it is a serious pain in the ass. The memory steer issue is fixed by an easy to install $30 bushing kit.

That said, it doesn't sound like there's really anything else wrong with the '08. They've just gotta sort out this paint issue.

[pwn]

Originally Posted by bigd

Just buy (or drive) the damn car

Have you forgotten what thread you've posted in?

[Digitalfiend]

Originally Posted by Mykl

Well..... the paint chipping thing is pretty serious. That's big money to fix.

At least the wheel bearing and pad knockback crap on the '04's really only affected the autocrossers and track guys. If you are one of those guys, then it is a serious pain in the ass. The memory steer issue is fixed by an easy to install $30 bushing kit.

That said, it doesn't sound like there's really anything else wrong with the '08. They've just gotta sort out this paint issue.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't singling out '04s or something. I was just trying to make the point that all model years of USDM STis to-date have had issues in one form or another.

The paint issue is probably one of the only legitimate problems right now with the '08. Honestly, I think it will take a redesign of the front fender shape (by the door) to fix the issue. The 3M film will protect your paint, but without mud flaps, it will get chewed to shreds over time. The need to extend the fender at the bottom to cover the wheel entirely. Then again, even that might not be sufficient. We wanted fender flares and we certainly got them, but now we have to pay the price.

The numb on centre steering feel isn't a problem, it is subjective preference. I personally want to resolve it too, but for every one of me or you there are probably ten buyers that don't even notice it or care.

[Mykl]

Eh, what you say about the '04's is true.

I thought the numb on center feeling on my '04 before I fixed it was as serious issue. Thankfully it was cheap to fix... unlike the pad knockback crap.

[bigd]

Originally Posted by pwn

Have you forgotten what thread you've posted in?

hehe no, I am referring more to the people who are putting off a purchase because this engine issue or some other problems people have complained about. Once the stop-sale is lifted, some will still be too paranoid to buy it. Those that already have one are getting worked up over problems others have complained about and suddenly they notice the same problem whether its really there or total BS.

[pwn]

I really wish subaru would let us buy our cars already

[chelidon]

Originally Posted by bigd

hehe no, I am referring more to the people who are putting off a purchase because this engine issue or some other problems people have complained about. Once the stop-sale is lifted, some will still be too paranoid to buy it. Those that already have one are getting worked up over problems others have complained about and suddenly they notice the same problem whether its really there or total BS.

I, for one, would *love* to buy an 08. In fact, the one I custom-ordered in early January has been sitting on my dealer's lot for 17 days due to the Stop Sale order. If SOA clears it within the next week, or the one at port they were trying to replace it with (also under Stop Sale, it turns out), you won't be able to see my checkbook, it'll move so fast. On the other hand, if I'm still sitting here at the end of the month with no car and no information on when it'll be available, I'll have to go to Plan B or C, because bottom-line, I need a car.

I do think this story probably has a happy ending, because my dealer's doing what they can (which is not much, so far) and if it comes down to it, I think they'll give me a rental/loaner to bridge the gap, as long as it's not for too long. Like someone else here mentioned last week, they're also talking extended warranty/free oil changes, etc, so I can't fault them for doing their best (though that last may be coming from SOA, the SOA rep I talked to last week hinted that they would "do what they needed to do to make it right," which I took as warranty, etc.)

Subaru has done a good job here so far with everything but information. I'm still optimistic this will work out, and if not, maybe I'll be in an 09 next year. Honestly, nothing else out there can touch the STI for what I want and need, I'd definitely be trading something off for a different car (speed, handling, money, practicality), and I won't do that unless I have to.

[chelidon]

New info from That Other List, confirming the copper in the oil diagnostic (from SubaruNet): BTW, someone let me know if it's considered bad posting etiquette to cross-post here from nasioc (or vice versa), thought you all would want to see this...

Subaru issue turbo STOP SALE on certain 08-09 models - Page 16 - News & Rumors - NASIOC

Turbo Engine Stop Sale checking Procedure
On April 7, 2008 we informed you of a stop sale order on 2008 Impreza, STi and Legacy vehicles and 2009 Forester vehicles equipped with 2.5L Turbo Engines and produced with the beginning chassis number/production dates and later as shown below:

Model Body Type Chassis Number Production Date
Forester Wagon 701045 or later 2008/01/08 or later
Legacy 2.5GT-LTD 222825 or later 2008/02/04 or later
2.5GT-B 222958 or later
OBK 2.5XT-LTD 353835 or later 2008/02/01 or later
Impreza Sedan 523363 or later 2008/01/08 or later
Wagon 825183 or later

We took this action as a “Customer First” preventive action as we had confirmed, in other markets, that there was a small possibility of an “Engine Knocking Noise” caused by a contamination in the area of the connecting rod big end journal at very low mileage/time in service.

The action was successful in preventing the potential of failures for our customers.

Subaru has defined a screening process that you must perform to all of the affected vehicles in your inventory before delivery to a customer or putting in demonstrator service.

The screening process consists of several steps to inspect the condition of the engine oil to determine if the engine is not affected by the contamination, is already damaged, or has a potential for damage.

Both a flow chart and detailed instruction sheet of the process are included in this document. Each step must be followed exactly, no short cuts.

As soon as the engine is determined to be in proper working condition, it can be sold or put into demo service.

To perform the screening, you will need the following materials for each vehicle:
• New magnetic Oil Pan Drain Plug (1) (32103KA000 - only this P/N is acceptable)
• New Oil Drain Plug Gasket (1) (11126AA000)
• New Oil Filter (1) (15208AA100)
• Engine Oil 5w30
• Filter paper (such as a standard automotive funnel type paint filter)
• Clear plastic “wash bottle” 16oz (500ml), with angled flexible snorkel:

Please order a plastic wash bottle, 16 ounce (500ml / 500cc), translucent color for observing the color of the oil. The cap and pick-up tube colors are not important for this test. We suggest using the following suppliers and supply houses to locate the plastic wash bottle or equivalent:
• W.W. Grainger Supply, Inc. - Grainger Industrial Supply
• Fisher Scientic, Inc. - Fisher Scientific - Welcome
• Most Medical Supply Locations
• Most Beauty Supply Locations

Note: It is important that the opening at the tip of the flexible snorkel be at least 3mm inside diameter in order to properly allow any contamination that may be present in the bottom of the oil pan to pass through into the bottle. It may be necessary to trim the flexible snorkel to obtain the 3mm opening. See picture in flowchart on page 4.

Detailed Instructions
You will need to refer to the flow chart provided to follow this written procedure and refer to the photos and graphics for examples.

Always follow all environmental and hazardous waste handling precautions to prevent any contamination or safety issues.

Engine Screening Procedure One

1) Drain the engine oil through the drain plug.

2) Using the wash bottle, insert the tip of the snorkel through the drain hole, ensuring that the tip is between the bottom of the pick-up screen and the oil pan. Note: The wash bottle can be re-used, but it must be thoroughly cleaned with aqueous parts cleaner and dried. All residual oil, particles and cleaner must be removed to ensure that no false judgments are made.

3) Siphon the remaining oil and residue from the oil pan as shown in the drawing (approximately 100cc).

4) Observe the color and clarity of the oil in the wash bottle, and compare it to the examples in the photo found on the flowchart on page 4.
NOTE: If the wash bottle is not clear, pour the oil and residue into a clear glass container to make a good judgment.

5) If the oil is clear, the engine is okay.
A) Replace the oil filter, install a new magnetic Oil Plug and new Oil Plug Gasket, and refill with fresh engine oil.

Engine Screening Procedure Two

6) If the oil clarity or color matches the “Needs Check” samples, strain the oil through the filter paper and capture the material residue.
A)If there are copper particles larger that 1 mm in the material residue, the engine is damaged. Immediately submit an E-QMR and wait for further instructions.
NOTE: It may be necessary to clean the particles to determine if they are copper. Copper is reddish in color. There may be very small particles of other materials that are typical of a new engine, such as silicon, aluminum and ferrous (steel or magnetic) content, that do not indicate any failure.
B)If there are no copper particles, or they are smaller than 1 mm, proceed to step 7.

7) Install a new magnetic Oil Drain Plug, reusing the original gasket and engine oil filter, and refill the engine with fresh oil.

8)Start the engine and let it idle for five (5) minutes to flush any residue from the oil passages.
A)Stop the engine, drain the oil, remove and replace the oil filter, clean and reinstall the magnetic drain pug, using the new gasket.
B)Refill with fresh oil.

9)Re-start the engine and let it idle for 5 minutes.
Note: Be sure to allow the Air Pump operation to complete its cycle. It will be difficult to distinguish any engine noise while the pump is operating.
A)Quickly rev and release the engine to 6,000 rpm at least 10 (ten) times. Caution: Do not exceed 6000 rpm or hold above the red line.
Note: Be sure to follow the “Reving Procedure” found on the flow chart located on page 4.
B)Let the engine idle for a few seconds; then increase and decrease the rpm slowly to 2500 rpm, while listening for abnormal lower end engine noise.

10) If lower end engine noise is evident, immediately stop the engine and submit an E-QMR and wait for further instructions.

11) If no noise, the engine is okay, and the vehicle can be released for retail sale.

[inpuressa]

Dang, when I go to the dealers and look for the STi, I will show them that procedure sheet and tell them "I only want the list of cars that passed procedure one" The later tests are too risky imo. It will always be in the back of your head... what if...

And if you bring it in after a failure, what are they going to do? Give you a new engine? The engine is RIP at that stage already. Isn't car going to have salvage title if the engine is swapped? This is actually worse than just one bearing going bad because it affects all moving parts in the engine.

[Stedenko]

Originally Posted by inpuressa

Dang, when I go to the dealers and look for the STi, I will show them that procedure sheet and tell them "I only want the list of cars that passed procedure one" The later tests are too risky imo. It will always be in the back of your head... what if...

Yeah, there's so much that could go wrong with these tests, and so much that seems to be subjective. What if the copper particles are 0.75 mm?

Thanks for posting that.

[stopkidding]

Hi All,

This is my first post to the forum and I am disappointed to be writing in this thread. I traded in my car on sat and leased an 08 STi. Never once was I told until the final moments about this issue. I was promised delivery today and now on search about the issue, sure enough I stumble upon this.

My question is, did the dealer have the obligation to inform this to me before the deal was made? I have signed the papers and but I have yet to pay. Do I have any rights to change the terms and ensure that I am not getting cheated? Based on my experience so far at this dealership the people a genuinely out to mislead you and cheat you. Yes its true that the car dealers have sold their souls....

I will give you more details about which "No.1 Subaru dealer in the US" I am talking about

Yes I live in Portland, so I bet you can guess already...

[DGMSTIenroute]

Originally Posted by chelidon

BTW, someone let me know if it's considered bad posting etiquette to cross-post here from nasioc

Don't know. Keep doing it. Especially if its real.

there was a small possibility of an “Engine Knocking Noise” caused by a contamination in the area of the connecting rod big end journal at very low mileage/time in service.

Small possibility? Sounds like something a deceased former Death Star security employee once said. Anybody know if the area in question likely means a crank journal, or a shell bearing on one of the rods (copper in either?)

5) If the oil is clear, the engine is okay.

Sounds more like the Pepsi challenge than a diagnostic for failing bearing/journal, but okay. Anybody know (or feel strongly) that this kind of failure would almost certainly present within a short period of time if misdiagnosed (i.e. withing the warranty period)?

Quickly rev and release the engine to 6,000 rpm at least 10 (ten) times.

Uh, there goes the sub 4500 break in. So, am I reading correctly that this probably has nothing to do with an oil contamination issue i.e. the earlier post, but rather a copper contamination of the oil from a journal/shell bearing defect?

My dealer said today (pre-this post) that the line was halted on the stop sale, slowing down delivery on mine which was originally expected about now, but will now certainly come in clean since they're doing the inspection (i.e. procedure listed above) on all cars prior to port arrival, which of course could be entirely BS. But somehow, this gives me an inkling of (hope?) that those of us in Suby-purgatory might actually get a car within a month, problem free (on that front at least).

I'm sure every single current owner with the capability of changing their own oil (most I'm sure) will be doing their own test in the next few days. Please start a new thread and post results.

[mofoSTI]

This is a test anybody can do or better yet for a piece of mind have the dealer do it for you even if you are out of the vin range.