[steiner]

bigd...your first mistake was buying the MR if you had intentions of tracking the car. The 6 speed is notoriously weak. Don't confuse the "brittle" MR tranny with the 5 speed in the RS and GSR though. Totally different animals if you're interested in track time and/or big power.

[bigd]

Yeah yeah I know that NOW...

The 6sp is not brittle, its actually plenty strong and lots of people have proven it with hundreds of drag passes. First gear on the 6sp is actually fatter than the 5sp, just the upper gears are too narrow. The heat buildup only happens on the track and mostly affects 4th gear because its so heavily used. The heat forces the oil to break down, the gear teeth overheat from metal/metal friction, the metal softens and the teeth shear. This can happen to ANY transmission (even the 5sp), but the MR's tranny uses an unfortunately narrow gear profile (only 14mm wide for 4th, 5th and 6th) and closer shaft spacing which increases tooth pressure which increases the probability of a heat related failure...

There have been many cars that have heat problems on the track (a friend was talking about a (C5 vette?) that required an oil cooler for track use which apparently upped the reliability a LOT. Adding an oil cooler can make a substantial difference, but I'm selling it before I can find out for myself.

The "brittle" portion I was referring to is the TC, which can be problematic on any Evo.

Over the last year I have researched the hell out of it on EvoM. When I purchased the MR roughly 2 years ago it was a non-issue because there were only a handful of MR's in the States, More people were having synchro problems etc with the 5sp. Over the years the 5sp's seem to have been mostly worked out, and Shep and TRE's buids do a great job of making them operate better. Too bad they can't make the 6sp bombproof.

Some people have found solutions for 6sp heat buildup on the track by using more robust fluids than OEM, pumped oil coolers, etc. Others have dropped the cash for a 5sp swap. The 6sp is fantastic on the track, the gear ratios are spaced perfectly... Just the heat has gotten the better of some units running more power than stock.

[Digitalfiend]

Welcome to evolutionm.net! Please enjoy your stay...

I'm just teasing. It's nice to read well written posts about the Evo-STi debate instead of the noise you usually get.

As for the video, I saw these translations from flyinpig on NASIOC:

"Wow why's he (new STI) so fast?" - Hattori (EVO X 5MT; 4:08)

"This car really rotates nicely. Turn-in is great. And this is on stock tires!" - Dori Dori (New STI; 4:17)

"Not only is this car (new STI) fast, it's also a much better Impreza in everyday driving. This (car) is great. Even with these tires it does well." - Dori Dori (New STI; 5:48)

Sounds pretty good to me.

[inpuressa]

Even with Tsuchiya's driving skill, it'd be hard for him to come up first from last, given all the cars were at equal. The new STi does have an edge over the other 5 cars... Hattori did mention that there may have been a problem with the 5sp before the race though. But at the end, most of the cars had brake fade issues. Not sure if the new STi had it though. Can someone upload the commentary part after the race?

[damstr]

Originally Posted by bigd

Personally I'm more interested in "usable power", who really gives a isht about 1000hp??? Oh yeah, anyone easily impressed with a number... Good power means area under the curve, and both engines are fantastic in this respect. 1000hp is still impressive, just entirely completely unrealistic.

Everyone knows the legendary 4G63 (cue "ooohs and aaahs" from the audience) is capable of some incredible numbers, but once you throw in the Evo's brittle drivetrain and mediocre build quality, it becomes a tossup for ownership as an only car if you get to regular drag or track events. Some of the biggest problems I have with my Evo have to do with its durability and build quality. 6sp heat-related failures on the track, more creaks squeaks and rattles than I care to list at only 20k miles, the sub-par clutch that costs your firstborn to replace, brittle transfer case, etc... I have read countless threads on EvoM listing the same problems over and over and over and over and over....
The car does its thing extremely well and is very very capable, but it can be awfully temperamental. I love the way it drives, but its certainly not the end-all be-all of performance cars. STi's have some issues too such as the smallish turbo and less-edgy driving, but (IMO) they just don't have the reliability problems as the Evo series. The Boxer engines are also capable of great power, it just costs a bit more than the 4G63. Your arguments about the small turbos are moot, considering you're including aftermarket parts, bolt ons and tunning, and this means a turbo is an easy upgrade in the greater scheme of things. I too wish Subaru included a fatter turbo, but it works pretty well for the vast majority of drivers who don't want huge hp.

I don't understand how the STi owners you commented on were having so many problems, they either had lemons or were abusing the living hell out of them. You're right, a borked STi 6sp is pretty rare.




Didn't AMS do some recent work probing the STi and were blown away by how much power they could get from it? Something in the tune of 410 lb ft of torque, and 350whp after intake, MBC TBE, and tune... They also commented with the same mods on an Evo IX, resulted in 40 less torque... The boxers produce better midrange power but the small turbo kinda poops out at high rpm where the Evo's turbo has longer legs, since hp is calculated with rpm it will of course produce higher hp numbers with a larger turbo. Anyways, just something to think about.

I'm not saying the STi is the end-all be-all performance car either, but I see a lot of fanboys claiming either STi or Evo IS the best, and I just like to keep things in perspective because they aren't better/worse, just different.

Alright well the 5 speed was your fault not the cars....

Build quality? If your seriously complaining about rattles then you should've bought something like a BWM or Audi. I have 1 rattle inside my car and have 20k miles on it that I put on the car in less then 9 months and I wasn't exactly easy on the car either. Perhaps you got a bad car. Everyone I know with an Evo has never said anything about bad build quality and a couple of them are REALLY picky.

No matter what if your going to get serious into modding then the stock stuff on both cars will suck and not be very reliable at all. So bring up things like (the STi trans is far better then the Evo's trans) don't apply anymore since they've both been upgraded.

Alright so all the stuff that was better on the STI is completely out the door at this point right? Good. Now lets talk about the engine which is now the remaining factor between the 2 cars. Up to this point both cars can handle gobs of power, question is is which is better at making power?

Usuable power? I'll get to that later. Anyway on the strip you can rev out easily so usuable power on a strip is pretty much out the window. Evo hands down will take the win when comparing fully built to fully built. Why? The 4G63has been around A LOT longer then the EJ20 has. Perhaps in the future tuners will be able to extract more power similar to the Evo out of the engines but right now on a track the 4G63 is superior. Top end is simply rediculous.

My friend has an 05 Evo VIII with 50k on the odo putting down 365/375 to the wheels and he half lifts when he shifts. Still on stock clutch (no slipping) and drivetrain with no upgraded tcase. Runs people ALL the time.

His sister has an Evo IX MR SE with cams, TBE, drop in filter, and manual boost controller set @ 22PSI put down 355awhp and 393torque. She could've easily broken 400 had they turned up the boost but the left it conservative. AMS told her that if had fully hard IC pipes she would've broken 400 torque and gained another 15hp while still staying @ 22PSI. That is friggin amazing. And her Evo isn't a "freak" either. The shop has many Evo IX's putting down similar numbers.

I think a lot of people that break stuff on their Evo don't drive them properly. No offense to anyone but how many of us are professionals? I'm certainly not so thats why I don't beat my car.

Its pretty hard to beat the bullet proof transmission on the STI but look at the 4G63, 524awhp daily driven on STOCK internals. My friend was doing this with a 35R , stock 2.0 block and internals, and alky. Drove it like this for 2 years no problems and loved it. After that he stroked it to a 2.3 and threw a 37R on there. Put down 634awhp on 110oct.

I also like the fact that the 4G63 is much easier to work on. Everything you need to check/repair/change for the engine is right there. Look at the STI. Looks like a freaking mess in there. You want to change the cams? Well have fun pulling the engine out. Would take a couple hours to switch the cams in an Evo. This alone is a HUGE difference. Before when I was looking at the STI I didn't really care about the engine bay and ease of engine work but now that I'm doing more of the work myself I'm starting to appreciate how easy everything on the Evo really is.

Usuable power? If its a track car (road course or drag) then the Evo has plenty of usuable power where you can rev out no prob. Now for street use any big turbo'd 4 cyl is going to have lag obviously even if stroked and with alky but you can still have a lot of fun if you have a good tune.

My other friend has an Evo IX with a 37R and 2.3 liter putting down 705 to the wheels on C16 with a nice tune. Took me for a ride and sure its definitely overkill what do you expect with 705awhp?

Now believe me when I say I'm not an Evo fanboy. May seem pretty hard to believe but I love STIs. I always wave to them on the road and talk to the owners when at meets. I think they look sick. Gold wheels on just about any color is amazing. When I was out looking and almost bought an STI I was really liking white on gold. Downright SEXY!

Like I said before, if your going to get serious into mods, then all the stuff stronger on the STI is going to be replaced anyway so why even argue about that? Your then left with modding then engine and which is better? I think everyone knows this answer.

So damn sorry for going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy off topic but I think some people overlook and make stuff much more dramatic on the even then it really is.

[Kirv]

at about the 4 minute mark, the sti pulls a pass on the hattori evo x...

VIDEO: Battle Royale between new and old Evos, Imprezas - Autoblog

scroll down a bit to see the video

[Dj Hurricane]

WOW! great Vid... the 08 is #1
,and best lap a second faster then the rest of the heat!!

I wonder if it was staged by the Fuji Heavy's to promote sales of the platform.... Hmmmmmm

[oce420]

Subaru is far more superior in their products and cars. Any car can make enormous amounts of whp, with enormous amounts of money, no need to brag here about whp my friend.

[Rootus]

Originally Posted by damstr

Like I said before, if your going to get serious into mods, then all the stuff stronger on the STI is going to be replaced anyway so why even argue about that? Your then left with modding then engine and which is better? I think everyone knows this answer.

I think the correct answer is that if you want to make serious power with either car you better have a fat wallet. They both have their strengths and weaknesses, but they both share the distinction of being expensive to mod. If you have enough money you can make them both silly fast.

But if you really wanted a drag car with stupid horsepower you should have bought a Mustang anyway. There are a number of Mustangs driving on the street in the city I live in that have better than 1000 whp. Try doing that in a Evo or STI .

[GotSTI?]

that was impressive footage of the JDM 08' STI. JDM that is!

[damstr]

Originally Posted by Rootus

I think the correct answer is that if you want to make serious power with either car you better have a fat wallet. They both have their strengths and weaknesses, but they both share the distinction of being expensive to mod. If you have enough money you can make them both silly fast.

But if you really wanted a drag car with stupid horsepower you should have bought a Mustang anyway. There are a number of Mustangs driving on the street in the city I live in that have better than 1000 whp. Try doing that in a Evo or STI .

If I really wanted a drag car I still wouldn't buy a Mustang. I'm so tired of them. See them all the time and nothing is more satisfying then embarassing them at the drag strip. Sure you could pick up a 5.0 and make it damn fast and cost a fraction of what the Evo or STI costs but so what? They look ugly, are impractical, absolutely SUCK at handling and aren't awd which makes the Evo's and STI's a much more rounded car IMO.

Stangs are good for one thing only and thats going fast in a straight line but only when they are built or have forced induction.

Yeah 1000hp on the street is pretty stupid even for a Mustang. I'd say at most the most usuable power would be around 500-550 on the road for a daily driver but thats pushing it. I'd be comfortable at high 400's which can be obtained with a 30R and Alky.

I did see the AMS Evo running around on the road on low boost which is about 850hp.

Originally Posted by oce420

Subaru is far more superior in their products and cars. Any car can make enormous amounts of whp, with enormous amounts of money, no need to brag here about whp my friend.

Well your kinda backing me up here. Yeah true any car will make gobs of power with enough money but what engine will do it for less and has more potential shall we say?

[damstr]

I want to see the Evo IX vs the new STI on a road course like this just by themselves of course.

[oce420]

Originally Posted by damstr

Well your kinda backing me up here. Yeah true any car will make gobs of power with enough money but what engine will do it for less and has more potential shall we say?

Well in example heres a cool power bragging thread on a VF39 > http://www.iwsti.com/forums/power-br...hp-397wtq.html


His mods are considerably cheap when it comes to the power he made. And that's VERY competitive with the same amount of mods to an evo on a stock turbo.

Another example would be my car, gt30r 390whp on 91 ~21psi, and 440whp on 95oct, Which I spent **less** than $5k for, I would think power mods to money on both cars are pretty equal give or take 10+-whp...which is not a significant difference imo. I just don't believe that money modding should be an argument when dealing with the two cars, hey some subarus can make more power than evos. It also depends on what parts you spend your money on as well...It's all about the tuner, dyno etc., and most importantly, drag strip times! Unfortunately, myself have no times to brag about, but just wanted to share this. No doubt I have equal respect for both cars, but I just like mine better

[steiner]

I like both.

[oce420]

well good were at an agreement lol