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is a new tmic worth buying

17K views 90 replies 9 participants last post by  yamahaSHO 
#1 ·
Is a new aftermarket tmic worth getting.
I'm concerned with heat and looking to eliminate as much heat as possible (thinking it will prolong the life of my engine)
So looking into a bigger and or more efficient tmic for my 2013 still hatchback as well as a ptp lava turbo wrap to further remove heat from under the hood ridding my tmic of as much heatsoak as possible. If so as you see above kinda already have a turbo wracked out but don't have a tmic picked out yet.
 
#2 · (Edited)
Short answer is yes, and a necessity to get nearly the capability of a turbo upgrade. But what want/need, even TMIC or FMIC will depend on the power level you want to achieve, and your budget.


Added:


Is a new aftermarket tmic worth getting. . . . If so as you see above kinda already have a turbo wracked out but don't have a tmic picked out yet.

I assume this is to be used with the new turbo the OP already picked out. But with no other info provided a useless question except to say yes they go together. Also if properly tuned you'll make more power, but it won't extend engine life. In fact adding power generally shortens an engines life.
 
#3 ·
The stock TMIC on the STi is actually quite good. I would not recommend replacing it unless you are going with a significantly bigger turbo. Not to say it wont "help" a bit but you wont see the real benefit from it until you start running more boost. I would spend my money else where on something else that would have a larger impact.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Like others said Wrapping the exhaust and turbo blanket probably has a bigger impact than TMIC alone, but combine with TMIC together you should be able to squeeze 2 degrees more timing inside your map. If money is no issue do them all together and you will benefit from it I used the ETS TMIC never tried other brand.
If on a budget no this is not a very good bang per buck mod.
 
#9 ·
Since he didn't mention a bigger turbo (and it'd have to be a lot bigger turbo), the stock 08+ TMIC is way more than sufficient and compared to a mass-loaded aftermarket unit, it will be able to cool out heat soak faster once the car starts moving.

Very highly unlikely that you'll get 2 degrees more timing and willing to bet no additional timing will be had as the OEM intercooler is more than enough.
 
#12 ·
Hmm alright, seems like the stock tmic is good enough and the consensus is to get the turbo wrap which i plane to and then wrap the hell out of the manifold and exhaust piping until its out and underneath the engine bay all together. is this sufficient for wrapping the exhaust piping
PTP Turbo Blankets
same company that makes the turbo blanket. looks like people overlap with this stuff by a little bit too when wrapping not sure if half width overlapping would be good or hold the heat in too much hmm.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Yamahasho I used the 2 degrees timing advance compensation per gear on 4 5 4500 RPM 2.5 Load above , but you could be right since i never tested if it would work on stock inter cooler.
But theoretically if air is going through it than it should be cooling more because of the bigger core while it's moving at high speed ,
low speed situation than yes i would say you probably wont be able to add any since it does gets hot like stock TMIC but it does work just not in every scenario .
Usually when i am at 4th gear already 80 ish MPH, so the heat has already cool down by then and ETS core starts to do its job, if i had the chance to do again i would probably do FMIC instead but at the time wasn't any kit available.
 
#14 ·
You mean you uses per gear timing compensation to remove timing in higher gears? They might be positive numbers you're putting in the tables, but it's not what timing is actually doing. You have a multiplier in there that should be making it negative, especially when load and heat is increased in higher gears (which is in addition to a load based timing table already).

A bigger core does not mean it is going to cool better. An efficient core and more surface area will (not thicker) will make a core cool better. In addition, I haven't found an aftermarket cooler that doesn't carry a considerable amount more mass than the stock cooler (it's a PITA when heat soaked).

You'll want to verify the 4th gear/80mph thing with IAT sensors. I think you'll be surprised with how much heat you're still carrying if you're blasting through the gears under full boost. In fact, I bet the stock 08+ TMIC will cool faster at speed after being heat soaked (I have an ETS as well).
 
#15 · (Edited)
Nope raw multiplier is +1 therefore it is adding timing, you can use it both way negative or postive on the multiplier.
I am going to say that base on ETS design and from my own testing it is better but i cant say every TMIC will perform same.
And No i am not using IAT to base my judgement, I am basing my judgement on my gains on power and not knocking when running higher timing than my normal tune.
I am using 80 MPH as a example when air flow is strong the ETS TMIC seems to perform better when adding timing and car is not knocking with repeated abuse on hi speed with strong air flow.
The whole TMIC intercooler gets heatsoak and loose heat slower than a stock TMIC argument is not really good point, even FMIC will get heatsoak but doesn't mean we shouldn't use a bigger core because it will loose heat slower due to heatsoak from idling slow traffic from a bigger core You have to look at it in all direction .
All intercooler were designed to be run when there is strong air flow, and with strong air flow you should be cooling the charge to a lower temperature if all things are equal in design and no flaws.
The way you comparing intercooler now is Lets let get them all heatsoak and see which will loose heat faster with no airflow going on them. Of course in that case the small one will win because it holds less BTU and u give him no airflow but lets put them on a fan and see which one will loose more BTU faster the big one will always win.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I cannot fathom why you would add timing in higher gears with more load unless your timing maps were effed.

I have an ETS... It probably has 10x the metal/mass than the OEM cooler. When it gets hot, that's a lot of metal to cool. Also, if you look at some of the wind tunnel pictures and videos of STi's, flow through the TMIC does not look great at speed considering the smoke passes right over the scoops.


3000gt-gto said:
The whole TMIC intercooler gets heatsoak and loose heat slower than a stock TMIC argument is not really good point, even FMIC will get heatsoak but doesn't mean we shouldn't use a bigger core because it will loose heat slower due to heatsoak from idling slow traffic from a bigger core You have to look at it in all direction .
A FMIC isn't sitting on top of a heat source nor contained to where the heat source is coming from...


And seriously, if you want to get the point out about X intercooler being better than OEM (again, I have an ETS TMIC), using before and after IAT's is going to be it. You're saying you're able to add timing, but you've also said you're adding timing per gear compensation in higher gears, which isn't ideal.


3000gt-gto said:
The way you compare intercooler now is Lets let get them all heatsoak and see which will loose heat faster with no airflow going on them. Of course in that case the small one will win because it holds less BTU and u give him no airflow but lets put them on a fan and see which one will loose more BTU faster the big one will always win.
That's not quite what I said:

yamahaSHO said:
A bigger core does not mean it is going to cool better. An efficient core and more surface area will (not thicker) will make a core cool better. In addition, I haven't found an aftermarket cooler that doesn't carry a considerable amount more mass than the stock cooler (it's a PITA when heat soaked).
 
#17 · (Edited)
I can tell you my evo X stock FMIC will heatsoak in Summer all the time before i switch to 3.5 core, it doesn't need to be on top a engine to be heat soak. FMIC sits right in front of the radiator it will abosorb heat from that as well and all engine heat released from it, it doesnt have to be on top of a engine to be heatsoaked it just takes longer for a FMIC to get heatsoaked. All you have to do is do couple runs in 100 degree weather small FMIC will heat soak. My definition of heatsoak is power start dropping and u start knocking not sure what your definition of heatsoak is.
Adding timing will always gain power on every gear doesn't matter what gear as long as you have not not reach MBT . Most people reducing timing on 4th and 5th because it is more likely to cause knock not because it doesn't make power.
And yes I would say ETS is a Efficient core if you give him air flow like its design to do,
adding the timing on 4 th and 5th gear is to ensure i will always have enough air flow to cool the core and gain the power.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Quote from you
I have an ETS... It probably has 10x the metal/mass than the OEM cooler. When it gets hot, that's a lot of metal to cool. Also, if you look at some of the wind tunnel pictures and videos of STi's, flow through the TMIC does not look great at speed considering the smoke passes right over the scoops.

When it gets hot it gets hot every TMIC gets hot when sitting idle or slow traffic but what about after is being cooled down ?
This is why I keep stressing using the advantage of 4 5 per gear compensation to ensure you will have a cool to warm intercooler before going at it.

Doesnt matter if flow through the TMIC does not look great at speed considering the smoke passes right over the scoops.
It's still flow and while u are on bigger intercooler with the same flow it will still cool more efficiently as long as the flow dont stop or cut off.
Lets not compare EFFIECIENT ebay coolers , compare effecient cooler vs effeicient cooler .
 
#19 · (Edited)
I know that an intercooler does not have to be on top of an engine to heat soak. A hot day, road heat, and heat from the compressor can heat soak an intercooler, but it's not quite like sitting it on top of a 200F engine and 1,xxxF turbo. My definition for heat soak is the same, however, your explaining the effects of it.

Ideally, unless stopped and the fans aren't running, the heat from the radiator (probably condenser) shouldn't really make it to a FMIC.


3000gt-gto said:
Adding timing will always gain power on every gear doesn't matter what gear as long as you have not not reach MBT
If your timing maps are good, you won't need to add timing in higher gears... PERIOD. Load based timing does this for you. Lower loads will use higher timing while when you increase the load, it will require less timing before either knocking or hitting MBT. Earlier WRX's and STi's didn't even have a gear compensation, however, it is nice to use to pull timing on 'hot' tunes. People reduce timing in high loads because it knocks/passes MBT and blows head gaskets.

Cliffs, if your tune is on point, you shouldn't need to add timing via gear compensation.

I'm told the ETS is an efficient core... But I've also been told the Grimmspeed is as well. Testing data from two sources showed otherwise.


3000gt-gto said:
adding the timing on 4 th and 5th gear is to ensure i will always have enough air flow to cool the core and gain the power.
3000gt-gto said:
When it gets hot it gets hot every TMIC gets hot when sitting idle or slow traffic but what about after is being cooled down ?
This is why I keep stressing using the advantage of 4 5 per gear compensation to ensure you will have a cool to warm intercooler before going at it.
What in the actual phuc?

3000gt-gto said:
Doesnt matter if flow through the TMIC does not look great at speed considering the smoke passes right over the scoops.
It's still flow and while u are on bigger intercooler with the same flow it will still cool more efficiently as long as the flow dont stop or cut off.
So much flow...



Again, just because an intercooler is physically BIGGER, does NOT mean it's going to be better at cooling charge air.

3000gt-gto said:
Lets not compare EFFIECIENT ebay coolers , compare effecient cooler vs effeicient cooler .
Nobody is talking about eBay coolers...
 
#20 ·
I have no idea what 3000GT is talking about. :rofl:

FACTS:

-I own both the stock GR TMIC (As my car is a 2013STI) and the ETS one.

-I have a fast acting air temp sensor at the cold end of the TMIC to read post TMIC air temps.

-all my tests are done with an EFR6758 with a turbo blanket, and running about 20 psi at red-line (it will do 24 FWIW)

-My ETS and my OEM TMIC would always have within a few degrees of ambient temp at the outlet while city driving (not under boost) even if I was stuck in traffic (unless I actually didn't move at all for like 15+ mins). I do have a turbo blanket.

-My IAT (as measured post TMIC) would only be up real high if the car was driven and then parked for like 30 mins or so. The only other time it would heat-soak is under boost. All it would take was a good romp through the gears and the IAT (as measured post TMIC) would be 140 or so.

If I kept beating on it at high speeds, the temps would just keep going higher. I have not done sustained high boost running at 110+ mph, but from the little bit of 90-100 mph stuff I have done, the actual car speed didn't seem to help with IAT. Sure it would if you were not in boost, but in boost temps just kept climbing.

-run about 3 degrees more timing in 1st gear then I do in 6th. (if it was the other way around I would need a new short-block). I have been tuning Subarus for almost 10 yrs, and anyone who runs more timing in the higher gears is either:

  • running waaaaaay too little timing in general and can get away with it
  • incompetent (not trying to be rude, just stating the facts):)
 
#27 ·
LittleBlueGT did a great job at addressing this garbage. Thank you.

And...\/

-run about 3 degrees more timing in 1st gear then I do in 6th. (if it was the other way around I would need a new short-block). I have been tuning Subarus for almost 10 yrs, and anyone who runs more timing in the higher gears is either:

  • running waaaaaay too little timing in general and can get away with it
  • incompetent (not trying to be rude, just stating the facts):)
Hammer, meet my friend nail. Hi nail, hi. :rofl:

Whether is 1st gear 2nd gear 3 4 5 6 as long as you haven't reach MBT or detonation u can add to gain power.
You do realize that I can add more timing on a turbo and E85 without hitting MBT, but blow out some head gaskets?

The reason I add timing up top for ETS TMIC was because i know if i add timing on bottom like Yamahasho stated the car would heat soak more while in idle or low speed condition so it would actually work worse at those times.
I can't even... WTF?
 
#21 · (Edited)
You can add timing any where you want as long as you haven't reach MBT or detonation.
Whether is 1st gear 2nd gear 3 4 5 6 as long as you haven't reach MBT or detonation u can add to gain power.
The reason I add timing up top for ETS TMIC was because i know if i add timing on bottom like Yamahasho stated the car would heat soak more while in idle or low speed condition so it would actually work worse at those times. But once the you are in high speed situation the core will cool effiecently.
If you are traveling 80 MPH and above for more than a few seconds there is no way IAT will be 140, but if u are only doing short BURST pull and stop and pull then yes it will reach 140.
I don't know about u guys but only time i am using wide open throttle on 4th gear is Highway,
I don't use 4th gear on local street short burst this is why i dont see high IAT at 4th gear,
and I dont quite understand why you say the actual car speed didn't seem to help with IAT.
My IAT at highway speeds are usually same as ambient temperature , local it hovers 100 and above.
 
#22 ·
You can add timing any where you want as long as you haven't reach MBT or detonation.
Whether is 1st gear 2nd gear 3 4 5 6 as long as you haven't reach MBT or detonation u can add to gain power.
You are correct, but why would you run such little timing in the lower gears then? You are robbing yourself of major lower gear power.


The reason I add timing up top for ETS TMIC was because i know if i add timing on bottom like Yamahasho stated the car would heat soak more while in idle or low speed condition so it would actually work worse at those times. But once the you are in high speed situation the core will cool effiecently.
If you actually had a post TMIC air sensor you would see that is not true.

If you are traveling 80 MPH and above for more than a few seconds there is no way IAT will be 140, but if u are only doing short BURST pull and stop and pull then yes it will reach 140.
Wrong, sorry. I even ran my turbo at 14 psi (which is waaaay waaay less heat then a VF running at 14-15 psi at red-line) and the TMIC would get that hot at 80 mph in boost.
 
#23 ·
One of the biggest misconceptions I see is people think on a hot day the TMIC heat-soaks when driving in traffic.

It doesn't!

I could be driving the car hard, come up to traffic, wait two sets of lights to get through (so maybe 4-6 mins of barely crawling) and my post TMIC IAT would only go up about 2-4 degrees F!

Now my IAT as measured by my MAF sensor in the intake will go up greatly in temp siting in traffic, but not the post TMIC IAT.
 
#24 · (Edited)
I see why u said urs is hovering 140 because u are taking temp after intercooelr,
i find adding per gear timing comp 1 2 3 although works but more likely to introduce knock because most of the time people are hovering around 120 degrees intake air temp at maf during summer in the city and giving more timing just cause more chance detonation problem in the citys if they like to go wot every red light during summer.
I do use 1 2 3 gear comp adding timing during drag racing for that one run only, but when coming back to street i don't find that helping knock problem. Especially when you have people run gas from all kinds of stations.
Being able to do 1 or 2 short burst is not enough for me to say it's safe to use for long term,
I am able to get lot of STI even with timing values of 10 degrees peak torque to 21-23 up top at 19 psi to knock with minues 2.8 already, you can see why i wouldn't even want to add even more timing .
I have not taken TMIC temperatures like u do so can you tell me what kind of temperature u reading u see on the post TMIC when cruising on highway for 5 to 10 mintues ?

If u are only taking reading on the TMIC when its in slow traffic or driving in short burst, i am not surprised the readings are similar to stock. I am only intested in the reading on sustain high speed like highway that will really tell me if ETS core was better or worse than stock.

And your definition of traffic one red light to another with short burst is not same as mine taking one and half hour just to get home from NYC a 15-18 miles distance. The TMIC temperature gets ridiculusly hot moving in those traffic 0 to 10 MPH traffic stop and go traffic so yes it will get heat soak it depends on the type of traffic you are in.

We tune for what works in our location temperature altitude and situation, just because i don't use 1 2 3 per gear adding timing or using adding timing on 4 5 6th gear on highway is wrong because u felt what works in your situation is the only right way to tune. At the end of the day we aim for zero knocks whatever result more power and safer tune then that is it there is no wrong or right it's all situational.
If i am not knocking on 4 5 6 and gaining power who is to say that's wrong?
You can say that i was being too safe on the timing, and yes you are right but it prevents people from knocking during high HEAT situation and multiple 123 wot pulls on street from knocking . And yes I can use Intake compensation for that but i dont need to remove all timings just limiting to 1 2 and 3 is fine with me in my area by the time they use 4th gear on highway they are traveling at such high speed i wont have to worry about the Heat soak causing knock.
 
#25 ·
I see why u said urs is hovering 140 because u are taking temp after intercooelr,
i find adding per gear timing comp 1 2 3 although works but more likely to introduce knock because most of the time people are hovering around 120 degrees intake air temp at maf during summer in the city and giving more timing just cause more chance detonation problem in the citys if they like to go wot every red light during summer.
I do use 1 2 3 gear comp adding timing during drag racing for that one run only, but when coming back to street i don't find that helping knock problem. Especially when you have people run gas from all kinds of stations.
Being able to do 1 or 2 short burst is not enough for me to say it's safe to use for long term,
I am able to get lot of STI even with timing values of 10 degrees peak torque to 21-23 up top at 19 psi to knock with minues 2.8 already, you can see why i wouldn't even want to add even more timing .
I have not taken TMIC temperatures like u do so can you tell me what kind of temperature u reading u see on the post TMIC when cruising on highway for 5 to 10 mintues ?

If u are only taking reading on the TMIC when its in slow traffic or driving in short burst, i am not surprised the readings are similar to stock. I am only intested in the reading on sustain high speed like highway that will really tell me if ETS core was better or worse than stock.

And your definition of traffic one red light to another with short burst is not same as mine taking one and half hour just to get home from NYC a 15-18 miles distance. The TMIC temperature gets ridiculusly hot moving in those traffic 0 to 10 MPH traffic stop and go traffic.
The car already pulls timing based off of IAT (as measured from the MAF).

I never said I don't get heat-soak driving from light to light. I meant sitting at a light, not getting through, then sitting again while possibly going 3 mph in between. Today I had construction on my drive to work made a 3 mile section take about 20 mins, never even got out of 1st gear. Ambient temps where 80ish, post TMI temps where about 90, and really hardly moved at all.

I can SIT at one light for llike 5 mins and the post TMIC IAT hardly budges.

The only time I see the post TMIC IAT high is:
-car has been sitting in garage for 30 mins after I shut-it-off
-when in boost for more then a few seconds

I have spent probably 50-60 hrs tuning IAT vs timing comps and other comps in my Subaru (all temps, ranging from -40 to +100).

I actually do understand what you are saying, but adding timing in 5th gear makes no sense, unless you are nowhere near MBT in the lower gears.

Sure when you are driving 80 mph not in boost the post-TMIC temps are close to ambient. Wouldn't matter what TMIC you had on.

Sure if you add timing in 4th or 5th and go WOT for a couple of secs when just cruising along at 80mph you are likely just fine. But get into boost in the higher gears for a bit longer you and you will have big time detonation.

The whole point of less timing in the higher gears is because is the potential for sustained load on the engine, and with our ECU only knowing the IAT as measured at the MAF it has no idea that the TMIC outlet temps are like 140. And trust me, if you beat on it at 80 mph you can get the TMIC oulet temps to 140+, real easy. Heck I can do it when it is 0F outside, just takes longer.
 
#28 ·
I actually can kind of figure out what he is trying to do, but he is basing it off incorrect assumptions.

When not in boost for more then a couple of secs:

  • your actual post TMIC temps are either the same or much lower then the IAT as reported by the MAF
  • therefore the IAT timing comp is more then safe then


When in boost for more then a few secs (TMIC):

  • your post TMIC temps are either the same or much higher then the temps reported by the MAF
  • the MAF IAT will read very close to ambient at freeway speeds
  • therefore many tuners used to globally reduce timing after some freeway runs cause there would be knock (from excessive post TMIC temps) in the higher gears
In come the timing comps per gear!!!:D


Now you can still tune the car as you would say in 3rd or in 4th. But when in the higher gears instead of geting knock and globally reducing timing, you can just reduce it in the higher gears.


You can also add some timing (or whatever permutation you wish to do, keeping in mind the whole 6th gear has no comp, but I don't want to get into that now) in the lower gears safely.


But, but, what happens when I see -2.8 knock in 2nd gear? First off, that depends on a lot of things. But if the knock isn't induced from drastically changing load (gear shifting, etc..) or low load knock, I can pretty mujch gaurantee you can run more timing in 2nd and first.


Go ahead do runs, but disregard the data where you are getting shift knock or something like it (heck, when you get shift knock or knock from changing load you will find you can keep reducing timing, and it makes no difference).


But but, what happens when I am in traffic and my IAT are reading 120+. Well, your IAT vs timing table takes care of that!;)
 
#29 ·
What do you mean WTF Yamahasho? There is nothing wrong adding timing on any gear as long as you have not reach detonation or reach MBT to gain power .
I am like WTF you tune so many cars and cant comprehend that ? Thinking only adding 1 2 3 is the only way.

5th gear comp is share with 6th gear on 15 STI
 
#30 ·
There is nothing wrong adding timing on any gear as long as you have not reach detonation or reach MBT to gain power .
Theoretically you are 100% correct.

But when you get into boost on the freeway for more then a few secs your post TMIC will rise a fair bit, but your MAF IAT will still show nice and low.

At that point it is very easy for that nice MBT threshold to fall a lot. And you get knock.

I am trying to explain this as best I can, but I am sick of typing.

:(
 
#31 ·
i know LittleBlueGT exactly what ur saying , mine tune i always dial back 2 degrees from actual tuning to combat knock and all kinds of gas. Therefore when i am on highway 4th gear with 2 degrees more than my 3 gear is fine and safe.
Overall i am trying to get the tune to have zero knock and be as safe as it can be but not sacraficing too much power.
 
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