[ride5000]

Originally Posted by Inn-Tune

I still feel like the difference is probably minimal with proper heat control using a turbo blanket etc. on both setups.

10000% agree.

the amount of heat absorbed in the couple of miliseconds that the charge air is in that "hot" pipe is insignificant.

A proper V mount can provide better airflow to the FMIC AND radiator so that definitely has the potential for improved performance. Whether it works great or not really depends on how it's executed.

there was an aussie on nasioc who had a v mount that put up disappointing numbers when compared to a "traditional" aps fmic. can't remember his name off the top of my head...

[05aspenwhitesti_centralnj]

Originally Posted by Inn-Tune

The air intake location on the ARC FMIC engine bay pic actually made me LOL. They reversed the piping route to avoid running the cold side IC pipe near the turbo and then stuffed the air filter so it's up against the head and next to the turbo.

LMFAO you saw that too huh? Yeah not sure why the intake is setup like that on that particular car, but the pic was mainly for the piping path comparison.

Haha!!

[05aspenwhitesti_centralnj]

So Inn-Tune and Ride5000....you guys seem to have some pretty in depth knowledge about this whole topic.

FMIC....normal piping path. No draw backs?
TMIC....Basic issues are heat soak and inability to properly cool IC due to air flowing around and not onto unit? Something like a GT3076R or GT3071R would be pushing the limits of say an APS or Spearco TMIC?

At what point do you say....Ok, it is time to upgrade to a FMIC? How about Stock turbo, upgrade fuel pump, high flow TBE and protune?

[Inn-Tune]

Originally Posted by ride5000

there was an aussie on nasioc who had a v mount that put up disappointing numbers when compared to a "traditional" aps fmic. can't remember his name off the top of my head...

Yup I'm not surprised in the least. It takes a lot of know how and great excecution to make a good v mount setup. When you look at what goes into the WRC cars, for instance, it becomes apparent.

I haven't given it a shot because the time, money in design, protyping, testing, etc. involved just to have something that worked as well as my bolt on setup (UR FMIC and Visteon radiator with fans) is way beyond what I'm willing to spend in that area at this point. My current setup works great as it is.

Originally Posted by 05aspenwhitesti_centralnj

So Inn-Tune and Ride5000....you guys seem to have some pretty in depth knowledge about this whole topic.

FMIC....normal piping path. No draw backs?
TMIC....Basic issues are heat soak and inability to properly cool IC due to air flowing around and not onto unit? Something like a GT3076R or GT3071R would be pushing the limits of say an APS or Spearco TMIC?

At what point do you say....Ok, it is time to upgrade to a FMIC? How about Stock turbo, upgrade fuel pump, high flow TBE and protune?

First off there are draw backs to every design so I couldn't say that about any setup. However, we seem to agree that reverse route doesn't make much difference when you have the turbo wrapped etc. I bet I saw more of a difference from swapping to the 06 plastic upper coolant reservoir to avoid some heat transfer to the intake manifold.

As I said earlier, I'm an FMIC fan because it's so much easier to keep a nice big FMIC core cool in the front of the vehicle. By virtue of being able to fit a large core you can also get the required cooling done without posing a considerable flow restriction. To do the same cooling in a smaller area core you're forced to restrict flow (all other things being equal...they're not I know I know ).

For example I tunes a GT30R kit with a nice upgraded TMIC. The car had a turbo blanket and downpipe wrap and the TMIC was ducted to the scoop. The car was quick after cruising on the highway and then doing a pull, but when you drove it through the city for a few minutes to get from my shop to the highway to do a pull it was a dog on the first on ramp. Personally that would drive me nuts. I want to know what I can expect each time I get on the gas, so the consistancy which the FMIC can far more easily provide is vital in my book. If you have the extra money for a good FMIC and the install I feel that's the way to go. If not, maximize the potential of the TMIC setup using the ideas in this thread.


If you want more specific recommendations on the brand of parts I'd use etc., send me a PM since I'm trying to keep brand talk out of the thread as much as possible.

I don't push FMICs on people with stock turbos. I don't even bring it up unless a customer has a concern about heat soak. That said, I've had customers that noticed heat soak on their own and we added FMICs to their cars. They all noted the throttle response wasn't quite as quick, but power delivery was consistant and they were all happier with the FMIC despite that tradeoff.

Everyone is different though...I'm sure there will be people that can't stand the difference in throttle response, much like there are people that can't stand a "heavier" clutch pedal, vibration from Group N mounts, etc. while others barely even notice.

Also remember we're talking about % changes in power due to intake manifold air temp changes, so the more power a car makes, the more it has to gain/lose from IC efficiency.

-Mike

[Flycaster]

Great thread, Mike - I appreciate all the time and effort you (and everyone else) have put out here.

Happy New Years guys - keep it in the garage tonight. It's amateur hour out there.

[ride5000]

Originally Posted by Inn-Tune

Also remember we're talking about % changes in power due to intake manifold air temp changes, so the more power a car makes, the more it has to gain/lose from IC efficiency.

also, a careful consideration of the ambient/climate conditions of the driving environment should be made. this was basically the foundation of my earlier point... ie, a cranked up big power turbo in arizona is going to need a lot more attention paid to intercooling capacity than does the same turbo in alaska. the colder it gets outside, the more efficient every intercooler becomes because the delta between charge air temp and ambient air temp gets bigger.

ken

ps don't forget the same goes for your coolant radiator too!

[Inn-Tune]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

Happy New Years guys - keep it in the garage tonight. It's amateur hour out there.

Same to you. I grew up in NYC and after seeing that drunken mob year after year I love staying in with my wife for the holiday.

Ride's radiator comment reminded me of one IC efficiency issue I forgot to mention. On any air to air intercooler in any location, airflow through the core is key to avoiding heat soak. Remember that the more you restrict airflow on the backside of the intercooler, the less air will flow through the core. For instance, if you put a sheet of cardboard behind it and seal the back off, air won't flow through. Nobody would do that, but many people have a condensor and radiator behind the intercooler. STi's seem to do surprisingly well with the condensor and radiator behind the front mount, but many other cars do not. Just something to keep in mind.