[Flycaster]

Look, we're just trying to give you some benefit of our own experience here. First off, I have nothing but great respect for Jorge - great tuner, and a tremendous asset to both forums. But advising someone to use a TMIC with a 52lb turbo, unless it's going to be tuned ultra-conservatively and under 20 psi...well, let's just say I think that's not a good idea on a street car.

Why? Again, my experience: a local kid with a FPG, tuned to 22 psi, Spearco TMIC, took me for a ride up a very windy local road (3-4 miles of switchbacks, mostly 20-70 mph)). His car was a typical 350whp rocket when we first started out, and by the time we got to the top of the pass, his car would've had trouble beating a VW Passat. And, btw, that TMIC? It was fricckin' hot enough to cook a hotdog on. Will Jorge see this on his dyno? My guess is no, due to the lack of load, non-repeated runs, and high fan air flow. But I was there, and saw it first hand.

Now, I run this same uphill "track" about 4-5 times every summer - GT30, 24 psi, FMIC - and my I/C return piping and TP are cold at the top of the pass. Just my experience, and YMMV.

(thanks La Mer!)

[n2oiroc]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

Look, we're just trying to give you some benefit of our own experience here. First off, I have nothing but great respect for Jorge - great tuner, and a tremendous asset to both forums. But advising someone to use a TMIC with a 52lb turbo, unless it's going to be tuned ultra-conservatively and under 20 psi...well, let's just say I think that's not a good idea on a street car.

Why? Again, my experience: a local kid with a FPG, tuned to 22 psi, Spearco TMIC, took me for a ride up a very windy local road (3-4 miles of switchbacks, mostly 20-70 mph)). His car was a typical 350whp rocket when we first started out, and by the time we got to the top of the pass, his car would've had trouble beating a VW Passat. And, btw, that TMIC? It was fricckin' hot enough to cook a hotdog on. Will Jorge see this on his dyno? My guess is no, due to the lack of load, non-repeated runs, and high fan air flow. But I was there, and saw it first hand.

Now, I run this same uphill "track" about 4-5 times every summer - GT30, 24 psi, FMIC - and my I/C return piping and TP are cold at the top of the pass. Just my experience, and YMMV.

(thanks La Mer!)

i appreciate the opinion and i will keep it in mind. i know even a gt30r is on the ragged edge of a tmic and if i deciede to go bigger (gt35r maybe) i will go fmic for sure. so far, the spearco has worked great with my element gt49. maybe it wouldnt with someone elses climate or driving style though.

[ride5000]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

Why? Again, my experience: a local kid with a FPG, tuned to 22 psi, Spearco TMIC, took me for a ride up a very windy local road (3-4 miles of switchbacks, mostly 20-70 mph)). His car was a typical 350whp rocket when we first started out, and by the time we got to the top of the pass, his car would've had trouble beating a VW Passat. And, btw, that TMIC? It was fricckin' hot enough to cook a hotdog on. Will Jorge see this on his dyno? My guess is no, due to the lack of load, non-repeated runs, and high fan air flow. But I was there, and saw it first hand.

one thing that i see time and time again with TMICs is a total lack of attention towards the ducting. there MUST be a good seal between the hoodscoop and the core itself, and with the exception of possibly APS i've never seen a totally integrated scoop/sealer/tmic solution. that means some custom work has to be done to insure adequate ambient airflow through the core instead of around it.

contrast that to the much easier to duct FMIC topology and you can see why i harbor a sneaking suspicion that at least some portion of the FMICs reputation for better performance is based on attention to detail during installation, and not on inherent superiority.

i'm not saying this was necessarily the case in your example, but i can count on one hand how many well-ducted aftermarket TMIC setups i've seen. fwiw, i spent a day working on that seal in my car, which included the oem "splitter," some metal fabrication (aluminum sheet and rivets), and some closed-cell foam insulation. it was a bit of a PITA but it was well worth it.

ken

[LSE]

sorry for the nob question but I don't get something. A lot of you add these heat shields around the turbo unit and some even add extra heat reflective foil, yet the scoop has a channel on the side that pushes air over...your turbo heat sheilds? won't all this shielding prevent the air from cooling the turbo (I know it is also oil cooled but seems subaru still chose to dedicate part of the scoop to cool it) thus shortening it's life and making the air that goes to the IC be hotter than it would otherwise?

Or I guess you are all taking the best of two evils. Cook the turbo to prevent it from cooking your IC.

[Flycaster]

Originally Posted by ride5000

...i'm not saying this was necessarily the case in your example, but i can count on one hand how many well-ducted aftermarket TMIC setups i've seen...

Ken, I think the ducting/sealing has to help, no doubt about it. In my example, there were (imo) 2 principal problems: 1, repeated high load pulls with a turbo pushing a LOT of hot air; 2, lack of virtually any high speed airflow due to the twisty nature of the "track." The performance window of the front scoop (at least on my older '04) is designed to maximize TMIC airflow between @ 45-100mph; iow, typical "cruising" speeds. Spend a lot of time outside that window, and all the ducting/sealing in the world can't overcome the higher flow of a big turbo pushing hot air since there will be little, if any, scoop flow. OTOH, spend most (if not all) of your time inside that window, properly apply all the ducting/sealing/shielding methods, and I can see how a Spearco would do the job nicely with a reasonably sized turbo that hasn't been pushed out of its high efficiency range. Moreover, use a dual injection system a la Mxpop, and I think you'd be golden (his system injects both pre and post I/C).

However, the issue of TMIC heatsoaking when the car is stationary is a problem that really can't be dealt with. Go out for a nice warm day drive, stop and go shopping for 10 minutes or grab a burger, and any TMIC will be hotter than hell. You can have the ducting/sealing/shielding totally maxed out and the hot air will still vent thru the scoop - which means it is passing thru the TMIC on the way up, by definition. OTOH, a FMIC, at least the front of it, is still ambient under those conditions and any speed will produce cooling whereas you need to hit @ that magic 45 mph to get good downflow with the hood scoop.

* I'm not pulling those "45 -100 mph" numbers out of the hat either. There were a number of threads devoted to exactly this issue floating around here (and on NASIOC) about 2 years ago.

[Inn-Tune]

I'm sure the TMIC vs. FMIC debate has been beaten to death a hundred times on here, so please don't bash the TMIC guys. A lot of the efficiency increasing ideas they have can help the FMIC guys make their setups even better.

Originally Posted by LSE

Cook the turbo to prevent it from cooking your IC.

Even if coating and blanketting my turbine housing didn't help keep heat out of the engine bay (which it does), I'd do it to keep heat in the housing anyways. When the housing is hot, the turbo spools up quicker. This is the same reason people wrap/coat their headers and uppipes.

There are times when a turbo has a heat related failure, but generally that's on poor quality turbos or on an engine that runs hotter than your average Subaru, like say a modded 2 rotor turbo. The first time you tune a turbo 2 rotor and you see EGTs a couple hundred degrees higher than you're used to seeing it's an uneasy feeling, but you get used to it.

[Flycaster]

Relax, Mike - no one here is "bashing" the TMIC guys, but we are all guilty of thread tangents from time to time. Apologies, but so it goes.

[RiftsWRX]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

Look, we're just trying to give you some benefit of our own experience here. First off, I have nothing but great respect for Jorge - great tuner, and a tremendous asset to both forums. But advising someone to use a TMIC with a 52lb turbo, unless it's going to be tuned ultra-conservatively and under 20 psi...well, let's just say I think that's not a good idea on a street car.

Why? Again, my experience: a local kid with a FPG, tuned to 22 psi, Spearco TMIC, took me for a ride up a very windy local road (3-4 miles of switchbacks, mostly 20-70 mph)). His car was a typical 350whp rocket when we first started out, and by the time we got to the top of the pass, his car would've had trouble beating a VW Passat. And, btw, that TMIC? It was fricckin' hot enough to cook a hotdog on. Will Jorge see this on his dyno? My guess is no, due to the lack of load, non-repeated runs, and high fan air flow. But I was there, and saw it first hand.

Now, I run this same uphill "track" about 4-5 times every summer - GT30, 24 psi, FMIC - and my I/C return piping and TP are cold at the top of the pass. Just my experience, and YMMV.

(thanks La Mer!)

You are absolutely right though. Not even I'd argue that for that type of application, a FMIC is ideal. It's about being objective in your recommendation. If 95% of the time the individual is going to have an occasional amount of fun on the road, or even the occasional track day or auto-x, the little bit of power you leave on the table is a small trade-off in terms of the response you keep, ease of installation, and relative less expensive cost to play.

... that's not to say I haven't PURPOSELY run dedicated road race cars on our 30r's and TMIC's just to see how they do over several 20 minute sessions), which to the level of tune were fine.

But I will never argue that a FMIC will always let you get 100% of the potential of a setup with near consistent results, less so then a TMIC. It simply isn't true. A FMIC will always be better unless you spend the time and thought to PROPERLY setup a TMIC.

I really should take a picture of some of the modified shrouds I've done for people. With integrated water spray, run by a Labtronic water spray controller. Talk about PIMP. I can guarantee you that a setup like that will have no issues playing with a FMIC. It's all about how much care you put into it.

[Flycaster]

Originally Posted by RiftsWRX

...the...little bit of power you leave on the table is a small trade-off in terms of the response you keep...

Well, off on another tangent again, but this is the intriguing bit to me. Mike, didn't you run a recent test where you went directly turbo-intake and compared it to turbo-I/C-intake set-ups? IIRC, it seems to me that the "response" hit due to the I/C and piping length wasn't anywhere near what I thought it would be. Am I all wet here?

Also, Jorge, what have you seen actually measured in terms of spool and/or re-spool hit between a FMIC and TMIC? In my case I have no objective criteria since I changed turbos when I put on the FMIC...

[Grynchmeister]

What about the piping paths on the different FMIC's? Ive seen 4 variants, WBR, Process West, SSAC, and the general "normal" routing. The only one ive found definitive drawbacks on was the WBR, "thelimitedproject" found out the bends were too severe & restricting airflow on his GT52 setup. Im guessing there wouldnt be a noticable difference between the SSAC routing & regular pipes, but im curious on the Process West routing, since it runs beneath & crosses the exhaust manifold, (they provide heat wrap and instructions to cover that portion of the pipe).
Umm yeah , weighing the pro's & cons i have decided to go FMIC when i go beyond stage I. Probably will skip stage II......
Thanks for all the excellent data!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CharcoalSTI]

I believe the reason that Scoobys have TMIC is becouse in a Rally situation the TMIC is less prone for damage ???

[torquemada]

Originally Posted by CharcoalSTI

I believe the reason that Scoobys have TMIC is becouse in a Rally situation the TMIC is less prone for damage ???

no





two different WRC-setups, no TMIC

[Inn-Tune]

Originally Posted by Flycaster

Well, off on another tangent again, but this is the intriguing bit to me. Mike, didn't you run a recent test where you went directly turbo-intake and compared it to turbo-I/C-intake set-ups? IIRC, it seems to me that the "response" hit due to the I/C and piping length wasn't anywhere near what I thought it would be. Am I all wet here?

I sure did. Thread here:
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...-manifold.html

It's too long to copy/paste, but if you read the first post you'll get the idea. I took the piping AND the IC out of the picture.

[05aspenwhitesti_centralnj]

Originally Posted by Grynchmeister

What about the piping paths on the different FMIC's? Ive seen 4 variants, WBR, Process West, SSAC, and the general "normal" routing. The only one ive found definitive drawbacks on was the WBR, "thelimitedproject" found out the bends were too severe & restricting airflow on his GT52 setup. Im guessing there wouldnt be a noticable difference between the SSAC routing & regular pipes, but im curious on the Process West routing, since it runs beneath & crosses the exhaust manifold, (they provide heat wrap and instructions to cover that portion of the pipe).
Umm yeah , weighing the pro's & cons i have decided to go FMIC when i go beyond stage I. Probably will skip stage II......
Thanks for all the excellent data!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A bit of a tangent but totally related to the charge temperature of the air entering the throttle body. I'm including a few pics because I have been doing a lot of research myself on this one. The WBR setup by shear explanation makes the most sense. The cooled air going into the throttle body should not have to pass back over the turbo/downpipe area before entering the throttle body. Think about it. We wrap our turbo's and downpipes and put heat shields on them to minimize the heat that is given off in that area. The pipes sitting over that area are constantly heated. I am not 100% about the restrictive airflow "thelimitedproject" was experiencing was due to this setup. One reason I am skeptical of that claim is because of some of the more "respected" companies out their that have the same setup.

The first pic is the WBR setup compared to the "normal" setup. The second pic is an ARC FMIC. Same pipe path as the WBR. Has anyone ever had a negative experience with the ARC FMIC???? I haven't heard of any negatives and I think most of us would agree that ARC is top of the line stuff. The third pic is a much more ideal setup. It is the V-Mount intercooler from Process West. It is the cold counter clockwise path but the piping is better situated because of a rotated mount turbo. The last pic is pretty much as close to the best setup you can ask for on an STI that isn't a dedicated racer. Reversed intake, counter clockwise piping path. The reversed intake makes the return air pipe extremely short, going directly from the intercooler to the throttle body. The hot air path can either be run as shown in the pic or you can run the hot side like the Process West V-Mount pic. If you get a chance to look at a pic of an engine bay from one of the Team Orange drift cars you can see how they have maximized the setup. The piping path is very similar to the Process West V-Mount setup and they have a reversed intake manifold. Extremely short piping and it is setup in the counter clockwise direction. The FMIC is also in the position where the radiator is in our cars, but they are pro's not us shade tree mechanics.

The guys who run FMIC's do not have the "ideal" setup IMHO simply because the cold air return path is heated by the turbo. Yes the huge area of the FMIC and the direct forced cooling because of the positioning are ideal. But to say it is a 100% ideal solution doesn't agree completley with me. Just my 2 cents and an opinion really.

[Inn-Tune]

The air intake location on the ARC FMIC engine bay pic actually made me LOL. They reversed the piping route to avoid running the cold side IC pipe near the turbo and then stuffed the air filter so it's up against the head and next to the turbo.

Ultimate Racing has a reverse route option as well and it does make sense to me, but that WBR kit does have some nasty tight radius bends coming off the turbo. The ARC unit keeps them considerably smoother than the WBR kit and it appears there is a gradual expansion in the diameter of the piping as it travel past the turbo which helps maintain good velocity through the bends. The UR kit starts with a rotated setup and modified compressor housing so it gets out of that area more cleanly. Full-Race seems to have taken that and produced a kit with similar routing.

I still feel like the difference is probably minimal with proper heat control using a turbo blanket etc. on both setups.

A proper V mount can provide better airflow to the FMIC AND radiator so that definitely has the potential for improved performance. Whether it works great or not really depends on how it's executed.