[05aspenwhitesti_centralnj]

LOL...I love reading Ride5000's responses to posts.

[Inn-Tune]

Originally Posted by fullerton

I agree, hence my large use of heat reflective shielding.

Since you said that in response to a question as to how you keep the engine from heating your top mount intercooler, where are you placing that shielding? Did you pull all the lines/hoses/etc. out of the way and affix it to the block?

I only ask because I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea and run out and affix reflective shielding in a manner that covers the underside of their top mount intercooler.

Nobody has mentioned motorcycle fans yet, but a pair of motorcylce fans are fantastic for pushing or pulling air through a top mount until you reach a vehicle speed where the air through the scoop overcomes the flow of the fans.

Originally Posted by ride5000

look, here's the bottom line: when you first started posting on nabisco, i thought you had a lot to offer. you had some good information and experiences to discuss. i still think you do, fwiw.

HOWEVER--be careful about what you say.

there are a lot of neophytes around that don't know enough to separate the wheat from the chaff. i am not one of them. i WILL call you on your suspicious statements and ask you to clarify them. there is a very long list of vendors that i've met head on. in the end i guarantee you that i look no more stupid than they do. just ask david buschur or full race. they are both people/companies i had the utmost respect for until they started pawning off their assumptions or theories as "facts." i am not so stupid as to blow them off entirely--they both still have a lot to offer--but they have fallen down a few notches in terms of reliability of information. i don't give a crap how many fanboys disagree with me; i know what i know, and i don't need to be popular OR sell a product.

the FACT of the matter is that the hotter the turbo discharge temp is, the better the intercooler works. if you want to make an intercooler appear to work superlatively, you pump in ridiculously hot air.

so i'll ask once more, where did your number come from?

you first said, "That is the actual reading on a real STi."

then you said, "Th numbers used were with the APS TR70 rotated turbo kit iirc."

still never answered the question of WHO read the number and HOW it was measured, but whatever. i still say it's stupid hot, and it paints the IC performance in the best possible light.



first of all, congratulations for admitting you assumed something. extrapolation of a value off of a charted characteristic is fine but you'd damn well better acknowledge it as such.

second of all, that's not what you're "illustrating" in your first post example. you don't have to pick a ludicrously low compressor efficiency to demonstrate that outlet temp and efficiency are inversely proportional.

look at the post title: "how an ic makes you power." you attempted to demonstrate how much power is lost/gained by intercooling, and you picked a number for turbo efficiency that was very low to inflate that power loss/gain. that's fine too, but expect to have someone like myself point that out.

third, if we want to crack this nut open, let's talk about the midrange rpms, where compressor eff. is still quite high. how much time is spent at redline and peak boost vs. elsewhere in the powerband? what if the driver is shortshifting because of the power characteristic of the car?



ahh, the good old, "if you don't stop picking on me, i'll take my ball and go home."

don't patronize me or any other reader of this board and tell me you're posting JUST to share knowledge. if that were the case you wouldn't have a vendor account and you wouldn't be pushing your company. both of those things are perfectly fine and should be encouraged, but understand they also reveal a vested interest, and you WILL be held to a higher standard of fact checking and research as a result.

as far as what i have to contribute, i've already made people aware of the scale and scope of typical compressor outlet temps, which was conspicuously absent in your posts. no need to thank me for that. i threw in a nice link to an online calculator, too, so people can plug and chug numbers of their OWN choice to see how things relate.

i've also hinted at the performance tradeoffs associated with typical usage, such as the necessity of detuning for a road course (where average engine power dissipation per unit time is higher than anywhere else) vs. tuning for pure street use (where triple digit pulls are typically few and far between).

i'd also like to point out for those of us who have and use launch control, every effort should be made to limit the amount of time building boost while stationary because of the rapid rise in IC core temps. you can check this out while parked with your hood open and your friend behind the wheel.

ken

Ken,

I'm not "packing up my ball" and going anywhere, but I'm glad you're moving your time and obvious investment in this discussion in a more positive direction that helps the other members rather than muddying one of the rare tech threads. An import performance shop doesn't survive, at least in our area, without a ton of balls and hard work so nobody is going to make me go away by questioning something I said on the internet. I understand why you're putting my post through the ringer and I don't mind when it's in the name of making sure a tech post informs members rather than giving them the wrong idea. As I'm sure you've noticed there's a ton of misinformation on all the boards and once in a while I try to correct some of it too.


My original post says:
"I'm using the APS D/R 725 intercooler simply because they have posted values for this piece." By "they" I meant APS, but I guess that wasn't clear enough. The HP, ambient, compressor outlet, and intake mani temps are right on their website. I used their values because I do feel they're accurate enough to use as an general example. Nobody else can say those are the values for their car. Even if they have that intercooler and turbo kit their car would have different results. It's just an example and everyone needs to gather their own data.

I put the concept up, the formulas, and an example so people could get a better handle on this if they were interested. The actual values in the example aren't usefull to the members aside from illustrating the concept. Personally I understand concepts much better when I see them in practice so I hope seeing the math carried out will help some members.

To be crystal clear, everyone has to gather their own data and then run the calculations I've listed for themself if they want values that are accurate for their setup.

The basic gist of my original post was that there's a significant amount of power to be gained and lost due to changes in intake manifold air temps and that the power your car produces on a dyno is not indicative of the power it is producing at any given moment due to, among many other things, intake manifold air temps. I just wanted to get that concept across and show members the data required and calculations used to figure out their own HP gains/losses under real world conditions.

-Mike

[fullerton]

Originally Posted by Inn-Tune

Since you said that in response to a question as to how you keep the engine from heating your top mount intercooler, where are you placing that shielding? Did you pull all the lines/hoses/etc. out of the way and affix it to the block?

I only ask because I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea and run out and affix reflective shielding in a manner that covers the underside of their top mount intercooler.

Nobody has mentioned motorcycle fans yet, but a pair of motorcylce fans are fantastic for pushing or pulling air through a top mount until you reach a vehicle speed where the air through the scoop overcomes the flow of the fans.

I like the fan idea, and AMS is supposedly releasing a TMIC with built in fans. However, I see a few problems with them. They could impede air flow/cooling at speed and the forced air at speed could destroy the motors/bearings on the fans. If those two problems are moot or could be overcome, they are a great idea.

This is my cooling (prevention of heating actually) setup:

I spray water at 5psi


Cover everything:

I went out into the garage to do my final ride height adjustment and went on to wrap my turbo and cover my turbo heat shield and TMIC with a radiant heat barrier. I chose the standard 14"f & 13.5"r height.

I used the Thermo Tec 24"x36" radiant heat barrier, and have about 8x24" remaining. I also used the 4 cylinder turbo blanket kit from Thermo Tec.

I'll post picts later of the heat barriers, but I will say that it went quite well. I covered every inch of my TMIC with the radiant heat barrier, save the part air flows through, including the y-pipe. The barrier is quite nice, it is basically a layer of aluminum foil, followed by a layer of fiberglass fabric, followed by an adhesive backing. It was quite easy to cut and stuck to the aluminum TMIC well.

After the completing the TMIC, I covered the inside of my COBB heatshield with the barrier. I then wrapped my turbo hotside with a heat barrier which was similar to the radiant heat barrier, but non-adhesive and capable of withstanding a higher temp. The kit came with enough for two nice sized layers, so I doubled up.

It is not the prettiest thing in the world, since all the kit includes is a flat sheet of the heat barrier and you have to cut it to fit and "sew" it on by yourself. I managed to get it looking pretty nice, and once it was covered by the heat shield, you can barely see it.

Unfortunately I do not have temperature reading from before the install, but I do plan on taking two STi's, running them in the same way, and then taking Heatshield, TMIC and Intake Manifold temps. I have to think this will reduce heatsoak, but I need to prove it.
.
.
.
Here are the parts to make this all happen:

The 36" x 24" adhesive barrier:
Thermo-Tec Adhesive Backed Heat Barriers: THE-13585 - summitracing.com

Turbo Binkie (includes the aluminum wrap (enough for 2 or 3 cars with wire to secure and a small pipe wrap for after the turbo)
Thermo-Tec Turbo Insulating Kits: THE-15003 - summitracing.com

And the strap on shield for air tubes (I plan on getting this to wrap my CAI):
Thermo-Tec Cool Tube Heat Shields: THE-14500 - summitracing.com

Yeah, she ain't pretty, but she gets the job done. 410wtq on 100 octane is pretty nice.


(and make sure your hoses stay on, since ebay fitment is 90%)

[n2oiroc]

Originally Posted by fullerton

I like the fan idea, and AMS is supposedly releasing a TMIC with built in fans. However, I see a few problems with them. They could impede air flow/cooling at speed and the forced air at speed could destroy the motors/bearings on the fans. If those two problems are moot or could be overcome, they are a great idea.

This is my cooling (prevention of heating actually) setup:

I spray water at 5psi


Cover everything:










Yeah, she ain't pretty, but she gets the job done. 410wtq on 100 octane is pretty nice.


(and make sure your hoses stay on, since ebay fitment is 90%)

i thought about the fans, but using them as pullers on the underside. then they wont get in the way of incoming air. i might do that or spray it with co2.

[fullerton]

Originally Posted by n2oiroc

i thought about the fans, but using them as pullers on the underside. then they wont get in the way of incoming air. i might do that or spray it with co2.

it does not matter which side they are on, they will impede flow either way. obviously the back would be more ideal than the front.

[Inn-Tune]

Wow fullerton you went all out on that top mount setup. Did you ever 1/4 mile drag it on the VF39? I'm curious how much it helped and dyno numbers really don't tell me much especially when we're talking about how much of a difference your cooling mods are making in the real world. Are you using meth/water injection in addition to the water spray?

The motorcycle fans are OEM and used on motorcycle radiators so they're exposed to similar vehicle speeds. I can't see them being fine on the bikes and then failing in this application so they should hold up fine as long as quality fans are used.

You are correct that at some point the fans pose a restriction above some speed. How much of a restriction it is at various speeds I couldn't tell you, but there is a tradeoff.

[fullerton]

Sorry, I've never been to the strip. It goes against what I think this car is designed to do/best at. If you're ever at a track event I'm at, I'd be happy to give you a ride so you can feel her pull.

No meth. I have the IC tapped (and plugged) for meth right now, but I'm trying to hold off. I use about 1 gallon of water in a 20 min track session when spraying my IC.

You make a good point on the fans for motorcycles, that would be the way to go.

[ride5000]

fullerton, a long time ago a user by the name of austin on nasioc did some tests with a pair of spal pusher fans mounted on top of a TMIC.

he found that they made a tremendous positive difference during periods where heatsoak occurs, with basically no negative repercussions at speed. in fact, the fans freewheeling in the stream served to redistribute the air across a larger portion of the core, much like the "splitter" fins typically seen.

on the basis of that thread i picked up a pair of the same two fans. they are no joke... they'll draw 10+A each at full tilt. there will be no heatsoak issues from radiative/convective engine block heat using those things, i can guarantee that.

secondarily, having a way to keep air flowing over the core at all times opens up an opportunity to use the fans in conjunction with an evaporative sprayer to pull core temps BELOW ambient.

the fans mock me in a cardboard box in my garage, right next to my ported/wrapped/foiled EL headers, up pipe, and aquamist water injection setup waiting to be installed.

edit: i remembered wrong--it wasn't 10+ amps each, it was 10+ a for the pair. the datasheet can be found here.

[fullerton]

i was looking on that site a few minutes ago ride.

maybe come spring I'll get a couple fans and do some testing. what fans did you buy?

i like the $50 controller kit. I want mine to be controlled by a thermostat and this does that.

[n2oiroc]

how about fans, co2 and the water sprayer. the intercooler would be froze in a block of ice! lol!

[Flycaster]

Hyperbole alert. While I appreciate all the hard work you guys have done, I'll stick with the FMIC, thanks. It works for me every time, all the time, no extra modding involved.

[modaddict]

Originally Posted by n2oiroc

how about fans, co2 and the water sprayer. the intercooler would be froze in a block of ice! lol!

for the price of all that crap and a tmic....you can have a fmic

+10 for what fly said....

[n2oiroc]

Originally Posted by modaddict

for the price of all that crap and a tmic....you can have a fmic

+10 for what fly said....

but i dont want a fmic! lol! last summer mine worked great, but i still might do the fans.

[modaddict]

Originally Posted by n2oiroc

but i dont want a fmic! lol! last summer mine worked great, but i still might do the fans.

all that $$ on a motor and no fmic?

all the best to you, amigo. I don't want 2.5l either

[n2oiroc]

Originally Posted by modaddict

all that $$ on a motor and no fmic?

all the best to you, amigo. I don't want 2.5l either

im only going with a 30r. i hear jorge prefers the spearco with their p&l 30r kit. i can always change my mind later, but it worked great with my gt49.